Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus (Read 39751 times)

Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #125 on:** February 23, 2021, 10:13:52 AM »

I did answer it, including saying "I'm not sure" and "I don't know" about one part of it. In the other part, St. Ambrose said that as martyrs are washed in their own blood, his piety and desire have washed him also. That's clear. The part about being crowned I'm not sure.

Anyway, St. Ambrose spoke before Trent. I asked you to explain Trent's teaching. Can you quote it and give me your view on it?

The Baptismal Character signifies the Sacrament cannot be repeated. People are not to be rebaptized, as St. Augustine proved when the controversy arose in his time. Pope St. Stephen also in controverting St. Cyprian's error on the subject.

The Baptismal Character also causes a man to belong to the Body of the Church. But as explained in the article, the dogma doesn't say "one must belong to the Body of the Church to be saved", but "outside the Church there is no sanctification or salvation". Those in justifying grace belong to the Soul of the Church. As the Soul is within a person, those in the Soul of the Church are within Her.

The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X teaches the Soul of the Church. St. Robert Bellarmine and Catholic Theologians also do.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #126 on:** February 23, 2021, 10:31:13 AM »

Ok, as long as you admit that justification alone, if one does not have the baptismal character, does not mean they are worthy for heaven. This is a disputed question. I don't know. You don't know. Fr Feeney doesn't know. Trent doesn't tell us.

Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #127 on:** February 23, 2021, 10:54:45 AM »

Did you miss this, Pax Vobis, from the Council of Trent.

When the Council of Trent is read carefully, we see that the Council teaches that:

Quote

...it is necessary to believe that the justified have everything necessary for them to be regarded as having completely satisfied the divine law for this life by their works, at least those which they have performed in God. And they may be regarded as having likewise truly merited the eternal life they will certainly attain in due time (if they but die in the state of grace) (see Apoc. 14:13; 606, can. 32), because Christ our Savior says: "He who drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst, but it will become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting" (see Jn. 4:13 ff.)[8] [Session VI, Chap. 16; Dz 809].

1. The justified have completely satisfied divine law by their good works done in Grace.
2. They have moreover truly merited eternal life which they will certainly attain in due time.
3. If they but die in the state of grace, they have merited and will obtain eternal life.
The Council of Trent taught this. I cited it earlier on. Do you believe it?

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #128 on:** February 23, 2021, 11:03:28 AM »

Trent is assuming that the justified spoken of here, were baptized. That is the normal way to be justified. That is how 99.999999999999% of people are justified - by reception of the sacrament.
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Trent says the SACRAMENT of baptism is necessary for salvation, just like St Ambrose says only the "initiated" martyred catechumens gain the crown. BOD is not a sacrament.
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BOD is mentioned once, in a small phrase, in all of the vast pages of Trent. It is the exception. You can't read Trent with the exception in mind (i.e. BOD); that's dishonest. You must assume that Trent is talking about the rule (i.e. sacramental baptism), not the exception.
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Your interpretation may be correct; it may not be. St Thomas distinguishes between the character and not. St Ambrose does too. Trent does not address it. We don't know.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #129 on:** February 23, 2021, 11:47:48 AM »

Quote from: XavierSem on February 23, 2021, 10:13:52 AM

The Baptismal Character also causes a man to belong to the Body of the Church. But as explained in the article, the dogma doesn't say "one must belong to the Body of the Church to be saved", but "outside the Church there is no sanctification or salvation". Those in justifying grace belong to the Soul of the Church. As the Soul is within a person, those in the Soul of the Church are within Her. The Catechism of Pope St. Pius X teaches the Soul of the Church. St. Robert Bellarmine and Catholic Theologians also do.

There is no Soul of the Church except the Holy Ghost. Everything with these false BODers has an answer that is an end run. They keep repeating the same errors over and over and over no matter how many times they are corrected it is always the same thing. If their teaching were building, a high rise, it would be windows magically floating in the sky. At every turn when they meet a dogma that obstructs them, they come up with an interpretation that is not what the dogma clearly teaches.

Quote

XavierSem says - Outside of the Church there is no salvation, but there are also the soul of the Church people who are not baptized, which the Holy Ghost forgot to inspire the councils and popes to include in any dogmatic decrees of EENS, till I discovered it on the internet.

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The Soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost. It is not an invisible extension of the mystical body which includes the unbaptized :

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, June 29, 1943: “… Leo XIII, of immortal memory in the Encyclical, “Divinum illud,” [expressed it] in these words: ‘Let it suffice to
state this, that, as Christ is the Head of the Church, the Holy Ghost is her soul."

Second, the Church is essentially (i.e., in its essence) a Mystical Body.
Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516: “… the mystical body, the Church (corpore mystico)…”

Pope St. Pius X, Editae saepe (# 8), May 26, 1910: “… the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ…”

Pope Leo XII, Quod Hoc Ineunte (# 1), May 24, 1824: “… His mystical Body.”

Therefore, to teach that one can be saved without belonging to the Body is to teach that one can be saved without belonging to the Church, since the Church is a Body.

A man can be either inside the Church or outside the Church. He can be either inside or outside the Body. There isn’t a third realm in which the Church exists – an invisible Soul of the Church. Those who say that one can be saved by belonging to the Soul of the Church, while not belonging to her Body, deny the undivided unity of the Church’s Body and Soul, which is parallel to denying the undivided unity of Christ’s Divine and Human natures.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 3), June 29, 1896: “For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ… From this it follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden and invisible Church are in error... It is assuredly impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that man should be a body alone or a soul alone. The connection and union of both elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life.”

The denial of the union of the Church’s Body and Soul leads to the heresy that the Church is invisible, which was condemned by Popes Leo XIII (above), Pius XI and Pius XII.
Third, the clearest proof against the “Soul of the Church” error logically follows from the first two already discussed. The third proof is that the infallible magisterium of the Catholic Church has defined that belonging to the Body of the Church is necessary for salvation! Pope Eugene IV, in his famous Bull Cantate Domino, defined that the unity of the ecclesiastical body (ecclesiastici corporis) is so strong that no one can be saved outside of it, even if he sheds his blood in the name of Christ.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jҽωs, heretics and schismatics can become participants in eternal life, but they will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life they have been added to the flock; and that the unity of this ecclesiastical body (ecclesiastici corporis) is so strong that only for those who abide in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fasts, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of a Christian soldier produce eternal rewards. No one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has persevered within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.”

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and nonexempt,belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith. That is why it is fitting that, belonging to the one same body, they also have the one same will…”

Pope Clement XIV, cuм Summi (# 3), Dec. 12, 1769: “One is the body of the Church, whose head is Christ, and all cohere in it.”

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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus (Read 39751 times)

Nishant Xavier

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Pax Vobis

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Nishant Xavier

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Pax Vobis

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Last Tradhican

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus