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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 39723 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #120 on: February 23, 2021, 09:12:47 AM »
QUIT POSTING QUOTES AND HAVE A NORMAL CONVERSATION.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #121 on: February 23, 2021, 09:15:36 AM »
You're assuming (with no evidence) that Limbo = lost.  I disagree.
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Offline Nishant Xavier

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #122 on: February 23, 2021, 09:18:01 AM »
According to you, some justified souls, who died washed in Christ's Blood, and sanctified by His Holy Spirit, are eternally deprived of the Beatific Vision. I consider that impossible.

The Just of the OT were not eternally deprived of the Beatific Vision, but only temporarily, until Christ came.

We may have to agree to disagree. Pax.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #123 on: February 23, 2021, 09:38:12 AM »

Quote
According to you, some justified souls, who died washed in Christ's Blood, and sanctified by His Holy Spirit, are eternally deprived of the Beatific Vision. I consider that impossible.

Then what's the point of the baptismal mark?  It's optional?
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For the 4th time (and you can say "you don't know"), why did St Ambrose make a distinction between the non-crowned martyred catechumen and the crowned one?  According to you, both martyred catechumens would be saved.  But why did St Ambrose say one was crowned and one wasn't?
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #124 on: February 23, 2021, 10:05:02 AM »
The baptismal character marks one as a Christian, while just being in the state of grace does not.  All men, whether Christian or not, can repent of their sins (as the story of Jonah and Ninevah shows).  All men, thus, can obtain grace before God.  But the SACRAMENT of baptism alone, provides the indelible mark, which is distinct from the grace of the sacrament (justification).
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St Paul speaks of being "sealed" with Christ.  He also says baptism makes one "clothed with Christ".  It's not clear that BOD provides any of this, because the character of baptism is distinct from the grace.  St Thomas says the baptismal character can never be lost, while sacramental grace can be, through sin.
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