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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 39792 times)

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #115 on: February 23, 2021, 08:12:33 AM »
I answered that question earlier. See the reply above that begins with "Pax, Baptism as we know has replaced Circuмcision".

I don't think you answered mine from Trent. But I appreciate what you are saying, you believe it requires further clarification.

I also give you the acceptable limits of theological speculation. Why don't you agree with SBC below, which has qualified what Fr. Feeney said somewhat, "Anticipating the rejoinder that no one is lost who dies in the state of grace, let me just affirm that I agree. Not only that I agree, but that I submit to this truth as I would a dogma of Faith. The Church, however, allows the faithful the freedom to believe that the providence of God will see to it that every person dying in the state of grace will also be baptized. "

I don't consider SBC's position to be heretical at all. I agree with them that the underlined is a dogma, and so the contrary is heresy.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #116 on: February 23, 2021, 08:49:32 AM »
Quote
Someone who dies justified has Christ and the Holy Spirit living in him. Can he really go to hell/limbo for all eternity?

Yes, it's possible.  I'm not saying I know this as a fact/dogma, I'm saying "I don't know" just as Fr Feeney said.  But...we have the example of the Old Testament Justified who did not go to heaven for 2 reasons:  1) Heaven was closed until Christ redeemed us all and 2) they were not baptized.
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Many saints have theorized that the Old Testament "saints" were baptized before they could enter heaven, with Christ, on the Ascension.  So this theory is not made up; there is a historical/theological basis for it.
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On the other hand, you could be correct....the justified but unbaptized could go to heaven.  BUT. WE. DON'T. KNOW. FOR. SURE.  The entire Fr Feeney "controversy" boils down to this question.  Fr Feeney said "I don't know what happens to the justified but unbaptized".  And 99% of the BOD'ers say he's a heretic for saying he "doesn't know".  Meanwhile, no BOD'er can point to ANY Church docuмent which clearly answers this specific question.  


Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #117 on: February 23, 2021, 08:56:02 AM »
All the OT just ultimately went to heaven. You are saying some will ultimately are not go. So the two are not equivalent.

Quote some of those Saints for us, and let's take a look at what they said. Also, if you believe the OT just were supposedly resurrected from the dead to be baptized, how do you know those Baptized by Desire also will not also supposedly be resurrected to be Baptized?

St. Alphonsus says it is de fide that souls are saved by Baptism of Desire. Since the Church has the conviction that some souls, who have died with Baptism of Desire only, are surely saved - even if only ultimately and not immєdιαtely - She teaches that BOD can save.

Baltimore Catechism: "We know that Baptism of Desire can save us ... from Holy Scripture which teaches" etc.

Also, Roman Catechism: In context, said the dangers for infants being eternally lost are not present for adults. According to you, that same danger of going to limbo is present for them as well. The RC said "when any unforeseen accident makes it impossible for them to be washed in the salutary waters, their determination and resolution to receive Baptism will avail them to Grace and Righteousness".

The implication of the Roman Catechism is plain that these adults will be saved when they die. It contrasted them with infants.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #118 on: February 23, 2021, 08:56:08 AM »
Quote
no one is lost who dies in the state of grace
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I agree with them that the underlined is a dogma, and so the contrary is heresy.
So were the Old Testament Just who went to Limbo "lost"?  Obviously not.

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #119 on: February 23, 2021, 09:02:49 AM »
Yes, they were not ultimately lost, were they, because they went to Heaven in the end. But you are saying some may be eternally lost. I disagree with that.

From: https://www.traditionalcatechism.com/the_necessity_of_baptism.php#:~:text=The%20Catechism%20of%20the%20Council%20of%20Trent%20clearly%20says%20concerning,them%20to%20grace%20and%20righteousness.%E2%80%9D

"Two Other Ways the Fruits of this Sacrament may be Received

In addition to the normative Baptism by water and Spirit that Christ commands, there are also the merciful "Baptism of Desire" and "Baptism of Blood." While Christ has given us the Sacrament as outlined above, and we are bound to obey Him, the fruits of sacramental Baptism may be had through these two other means. We must remember that while we are bound by the Sacraments, God is not, and He can pour out His graces in other ways.

The Catechism of the Council of Trent clearly says concerning Baptism of desire:

“Should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.”

Also we read concerning Baptism of Blood:

St. John Chrysostom
"As those baptized in water, so also those who suffer martyrdom are washed clean, [the later] in their own blood,"
St. Augustine

"For whatever unbaptized persons die confessing Christ, this confession is of the same efficacy for the remission of sins as if they were washed in the sacred font of baptism. For He who said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God," made also an exception in their favor, in that other sentence where He no less absolutely said, "Whosoever shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven;" and in another place, "Whosoever will lose his life for my sake, shall find it." And this explains the verse, "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints." For what is more precious than a death by which a man's sins are all forgiven, and his merits increased an hundred fold?"