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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 39731 times)

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #105 on: February 22, 2021, 12:56:59 PM »
Thank you. Here is the way I see it: Anyone who dies outside the visible unity of the Church, with the exception of a catechumen, is considered lost. This is reflected by the Church’s canon law. Only God knows the ultimate fate of those who die. We don’t know who was secretly baptized and we can’t read men’s hearts and who made an act of perfect contrition before he expired. This is why we can’t make an absolute judgment, but we can presume that they are lost.

In the case of the Protestant, who was validly baptized, we can hold out the remote hope that they repented and made an act of perfect contrition before they died. In the case of the unbaptised person who is dying (not a catechumen), is it possible that they asked a nurse to baptize them? Of course. Did this ever had happen? Possibly. Does it happen often? Obviously no.

How about the case of a Jew who was secretly learning the catechism? Wouldn’t he be considered a catechumen? How extremely rare would this be? How about the Protestant who was studying Catholicism and was convinced of it’s truth? You could say that God doesn’t work that way, but ultimately we don’t know since God’s ways are not our ways. Also, it seems to me that one important reason the Church does not allow ecclesiastical burials for those who die outside the Church (with the exception of catechumen who dies before they are baptized) is to demonstrate that it is of the utmost importance for all to join the visible Church.
Sorry...just getting back to this thread.  This explanation makes a lot of sense to me.  I see that Last Tradhican also agreed with it, but he is anti-BOD.  So, I'm not sure what to make of the positions in this thread. It's probably why I tend to stay out of the Feeney Ghetto....lol.

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #106 on: February 22, 2021, 12:57:16 PM »
Pax, Baptism as we know has replaced Circuмcision. Circuмcision left its mark on the body. The Doctors and Saints say, mostly in expressing the non-repeatability of Sacramental Baptism, that Baptism likewise leaves its indelible mark on the soul. It also makes us full members of the Mystical Body. Some here have speculated that BOD would have to impress the Sacramental Character also. I hold that Cornelius received BOD, as I explained with sources from Scripture and Tradition (like St. Augustine and the Council of Orange - that's now the sixth ancient source on BOD by my count that comes to mind), but if he had received the Character then, what need for him to be baptized? In fact, he could not have been. I hold that in Water Baptism, one receives the plenary remission of all temporary punishments including those which, depending on the intensity of one's contrition, one would not have been released from in BOD, as St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus explain. Thus, even one who has already received BOD still needs to be baptized to be able to go to Heaven straightaway rather to Purgatory. The Character of Sacramental also makes us full members of the Visible Body of the Church.

Here's the text of St. Ambrose as cited by Mirari Vos: “Or if the fact disturbs you that the mysteries have not been solemnly celebrated, then you should realize that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated.  But if they are washed in their own blood, his piety and his desire have washed him, also.”

I'm not sure what St. Ambrose means by the first sentence. The second seems fairly plain. St. Ambrose is arguing from the fact that almost everyone grants that Martyrs are saved, because they are washed in their own blood. Thus, the Doctor is saying, similarly, the Catechumen is washed by his piety and desire (what St. Augustine, cited by St. Thomas had called "faith and conversion of heart".)

Regarding the first sentence, could it possibly refer to Baptism and Confirmation/Chrismation? I don't know. Maybe St. Ambrose meant "they are not Crowned/Chrismated" if they are not "Initiated/Baptized". Thus the meaning would be martyrs who are catechumens are neither Baptized nor Chrismated. Maybe. But I'm not sure what it means and I haven't really meditated on that part of the text before. 

Question to you: Someone who dies justified has Christ and the Holy Spirit living in him. Can he really go to hell/limbo for all eternity?


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #107 on: February 22, 2021, 01:12:40 PM »
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Question to you: Someone who dies justified has Christ and the Holy Spirit living in him. Can he really go to hell/limbo for all eternity?

Well, Scripture is clear that those without the baptismal character (i.e. wedding garment) cannot stay at the Wedding Feast (heaven).  So, yes, a lack of baptismal character would send one to Limbo (a place of natural happiness).  
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Since heaven is not promised to any of us, then the lack of baptism sacramentally (i.e. one was only justified by BOD but did not receive the sacrament), that means that God allowed the person to die justified but unbaptized.  That means that God knew from all eternity that the person would not be baptized.  So, yes, God decided not to give that person the gift of salvation (because they were not members of the Church but only justified).  But God did prevent them from hell and gave them the gift of natural happiness in Limbo.

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #108 on: February 22, 2021, 01:18:32 PM »
The opinion that someone is lost who dies in Grace, who merited eternal life by the good works he did in God, as Trent said, is heretical.

There is no dogmatic Tradition of adults going to limbo now in the era after Christ. Supposing they did go to limbo, which limbo?

The limbo of the Fathers? But that is closed. Second, if supposedly they could go there, then could they supposedly leave also one day?

The limbo of the infants? But they are not infants. Moreover, justification means the remission of original sin. So they don't have OS.

The Old dispensation was different. Yet, even in the OT, those who died in Grace were ultimately saved. They just had to wait.

God not only foreknew but also predestined all His elect would die in Grace. And He has determined that that is sufficient for salvation.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #109 on: February 22, 2021, 02:01:04 PM »
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The opinion that someone is lost who dies in Grace, who merited eternal life by the good works he did in God, as Trent said, is heretical.
"Lost" commonly refers to hellfire and damnation.  Those in Limbo are not saved, yet they are also not damned to hellfire.
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There is no dogmatic Tradition of adults going to limbo now in the era after Christ. Supposing they did go to limbo, which limbo?
That's the point.  The Church has not told us.
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God not only foreknew but also predestined all His elect would die in Grace. And He has determined that that is sufficient for salvation.

Baptized and justified is different from unbaptized and justified.  The Church has told us what happens to the former but not the latter.  If you argue that the justified all go to heaven, regardless of the sacrament of baptism, then you are saying 1) the sacrament doesn't matter, 2) the indelible mark doesn't matter, 3) the question of remission of sins doesn't matter and 4) partial members of the Church are = full members of the Church.
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The Church has not explained ANY of this.