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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 39791 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #90 on: February 22, 2021, 11:37:56 AM »
We have the BoDers arguing desperately, tooth-and-nail, to salve St. Ambrose and St. Augustine in favor of BoD.  Why?  It's because that's ALL they've got in terms of Patristic "evidence."  Meanwhile, anti-BoDers have 5 or 6 Fathers.  Even if we were to concede that St. Ambrose believed it ... and that St. Augustine did for a time, that's not fatal to the anti-BoD case at all, since all that has to be demonstrated is the lack of "dogmatic consensus" on the Church Fathers.  Having 2 in favor and 5 against can hardly be said to constituted dogmatic consensus in favor.

Most of the time, in fact, I have tacitly conceded the St. Ambrose one, saying that AT MOST they have 1.5 Fathers who favor BoD.
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Offline Nishant Xavier

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #91 on: February 22, 2021, 11:53:21 AM »
I wonder why Dimondite dissenters think so little of St. Thomas. St. Thomas clearly shows that at least 3 Church Fathers taught BOD.

Bp. Eusebius, another Church Father, said "And of women, Herais died while yet a catechumen, receiving Baptism by fire".

That's 4 at least in a very short study of the question. Anyway, it is irrelevant who did or did not before the Church closed the question.

As I explained, the Doctrine on Perfect Contrition was not fully developed yet. In the case of Martyrs, Martyrdom itself is the Act of Love.

The issue here is that Trent taught Baptism of Desire. The post-Tridentine Doctors, Manuals and Theologians are clear. Case Closed.

The Popes and Doctors and Saints have taught BOD in their own Catechisms or Moral Theology Manuals. Dimondites are in mortal sin.

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #92 on: February 22, 2021, 11:55:09 AM »
Yes, desperation + agenda + poor reading comprehension + lack of understanding of the word "consensus" = bad theology.
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Errors of the Jansenists, #30:  "When anyone finds a doctrine clearly established in (St) Augustine, he can absolutely hold it and teach it, disregarding any bull of the pope."  CONDEMNED by Pope Alexander VIII.
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Fr William Jurgens:
We must stress that a particular patristic text (i.e. a particular statement from a Church Father) is in no instance to be regarded as a 'proof' of a particular doctrine.  Dogmas are not 'proved' by patristic statements, but by the infallible teaching instruments of the Church.
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The value of the Fathers and writers is this:  that in the aggregate (that is, in totality, or by consensus), they provide a witness to the content of Tradition, that Tradition which is itself a vehicle of revelation.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #93 on: February 22, 2021, 11:58:12 AM »
Quote
The issue here is that Trent taught Baptism of Desire.

And yet, both you and MirariV (and St Augustine, and St Ambrose, and St Thomas, and everyone else i've ever talked to) provide different definitions of BOD.
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Trent mentions it in 1 sentence and that's a "teaching"?  hahahaha.  There's not even a post-Trent "consensus" on what BOD is, what its effects are, what happens after death, etc.
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Offline Nishant Xavier

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #94 on: February 22, 2021, 12:00:31 PM »
Also, Pope St. Pius V has pre-emptively condemned the Jansenist Dimonds in the Jansenist Michael Baius: "CONDEMNED:

Thus, the following propositions are dogmatic Truths, after Pope St. Pius V and the Council of Trent:

1. Perfect and Sincere Charity, in both Catechumens and Penitents, avails the Remission of Sins. (See also the Roman Catechism).
2. That Charity which is the fullness of the law IS always necessarily connected with the Remission of Sins, i.e. Confers Justification.

Catechism of Pope St. Pius V, and St. Charles Borromeo, of the Council of Trent: "if any unforeseen accident prevents them from being washed in the salutary waters, their desire and intention to receive Baptism will avail them to Grace and Righteousness".

Every post-Tridentine Theologian clearly considers Baptism of Desire is taught by the Church. 

BOD does not need to be defined by non-Saints,non-Doctors,non-Popes like Mirari Vos or myself.

It was defined by Pope St. Pius V, Pope St. Pius X and St. Alphonsus Ligouri as I showed earlier.
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