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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 39880 times)

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Offline Mirari Vos

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2021, 10:30:06 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on February 22, 2021, 09:21:54 AM
Could you actually please READ what I wrote?  I wasn't saying there was 700 years of unanimous teaching against BoD.  This is the second or third time now that you've misunderstood (or deliberately distorted?) something I wrote.

I was citing a different doctrine, St. Augustine's teaching that unbaptized infants go to hell and suffer (albeit very mildly).
Sorry, my apologies, I misunderstood you.
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Offline Nishant Xavier

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #81 on: February 22, 2021, 10:30:59 AM »
St. Thomas: And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."

From: http://www.baptismofdesire.com/

Edit, Also St. Thomas: "Whether three kinds of Baptism are fittingly described--viz. Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit?
Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence it is written (Apoc. 7:14): "These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb." In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this it is written (Is. 4:4): "If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." 

Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): "The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: 'Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise' that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable."
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Offline Mirari Vos

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2021, 10:34:45 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 22, 2021, 10:28:46 AM
Reading comprehension, people!!  Such a lack of reading comprehension...
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St Ambrose is distinguishing between baptism being "solemnly celebrated" (i.e. performed publically, at Eastertime, or at least in a church, in front of his family/friends, the same ones who were grieving) and just a simple "initiation" of baptism (i.e. done in jail, in a hospital or on a deathbed).
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If St Ambrose is supporting BOD, why would he make reference that not even martyrs are crowned/saved if they are not initiated/baptized?  It makes no sense and doesn't support your view.
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St Ambrose is clearly giving a "pep talk" to those who are grieving, telling them that Valentinian was prepared and wanted baptism and even though he did not receive it SOLEMNLY (i.e. in a church), St Ambrose openly prays to the Holy Father that he did receive it before he died.  St Ambrose is not teaching a doctrine; he is telling people that God is not deceived and that if Valentinian truly desired baptism (which they all thought he did) then he would receive it non-solemnly (i.e. not in a church).  
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At the end, St Ambrose reiterates doctrine that even a martyr is not saved without baptism, which clearly applies to Valentinian.
 He is clearly referring to the funeral solemnities not baptism.  :facepalm:
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Offline Mirari Vos

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2021, 10:36:51 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 22, 2021, 09:58:45 AM
This is not proven at all.  
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MirariV, can you give us your definition of BOD, with examples, and we'll see if you and Xavier agree?  
Please read my previous posts, I explained it precisely.
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Offline Mirari Vos

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #84 on: February 22, 2021, 10:44:22 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 22, 2021, 10:28:46 AM
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At the end, St Ambrose reiterates doctrine that even a martyr is not saved without baptism, which clearly applies to Valentinian.
If you read it correctly, you would see that St. Ambrose was saying that even the catechumen martyrs do not have a solemn funeral.
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