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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 34554 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2021, 08:33:45 AM »
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  • Firstly, concerning St Augustine, I can only say that he went back and forth on the issue.  If he were alive today, he could give a clear answer but his writings do contradict themselves, to some degree.

    I wish to explain what is meant by "back and forth".  He did not go back and forth in the sense that he favored BoD, then rejected it, then favored it again.  Early on after his conversation, he floated what he admitted was speculation regarding BoD ... after having gone back and forth in his mind about it.  It was a very tentative piece of speculative theology ... and he admits it.  THEN, after he matured and had battled the Pelagians, he forcefully rejected the opinion and has issued some of the strongest anti-BoD statements in existence.  Once he rejected BoD, he did not ever go back to it, and his final position was one of rejecting BoD as Pelagian.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #61 on: February 22, 2021, 08:37:08 AM »
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  • Hugh of St. Victor, a proponent of BOD, says that Saint Augustine didn’t reject his early opinion on BOD, he only rejected the example he used: (see highlight in red, but read the whole tract)

    Hugh of St. Victor was WRONG.

    https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

    Even if you persist in pretending that St. Augustine believed in it, that makes exactly one Church Father who did.  Strangely, then his disciple Church Father Fulgentius explicitly rejected it ... along with several other Church Fathers ... along with that 5th-century theology manual attributed by some to St. Augustine.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #62 on: February 22, 2021, 08:38:11 AM »
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  • St Ambrose said in other works that water was necessary (Duties of Clergy):
    "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."  No one is excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by some necessity.
    .
    So here we have another example (in addition to St Augustine) where a Church Father who is a "BOD supporter" contradicts BOD some other time. 
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    As for Saint Cyprian, regardless of whether he held that re-baptism was necessary, that doesn’t take away from the fact that Saint Cyprian held that those who he believed were not validly baptized, could still be saved.
    St Cyprian was excommunicated for his flawed views on baptism and re-baptism.  He's a saint and much holier than I am, but his views on baptism can't be trusted.
    .

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    BOD and BOB don’t require the reception of the sacrament of baptism which in essence puts a big hole into the BOD denier’s theory since in both cases they are similar in that the actual sacrament is not absolutely necessary and can be satisfied in another way. Thus, if you believe in BOB, you really should have no problem believing in BOD.

    Not true at all.  You need to read more on the Church Fathers.  BOB was explained as a sacrament; BOD has never been.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #63 on: February 22, 2021, 08:40:56 AM »
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  • St. Ambrose is not in the least bit ambiguous. Everyone should read his words below and see for themselves.

    Ridiculous, Mirari.  You're showing yourself to be of bad will now.

    St. Ambrose simply said that he received the grace he asked for ... which is ambiguous.  It implies that if he didn't receive the Sacrament, then it's because he didn't truly seek it.  So it could be read as the opposite.

    This was before news travelled quickly, and the details were likely not all available.  Was there a possibility that one of his attendants baptized him as he lay dying? Or was it possible, as some Fathers held, that the angels pronounced the words of Baptism over a dying martyr?  So could this be a reference to BoB?  Valentinian was in fact killed for rejecting Arianism.

    https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

    You feigned being sincere and of good will here, but now you're exposing yourself ... as most BoDers usually do.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #64 on: February 22, 2021, 08:45:31 AM »
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  • Not true at all.  You need to read more on the Church Fathers.  BOB was explained as a sacrament; BOD has never been.

    I cited that 5th century theology manual that for a long time had been attributed to St. Augustine, stating quite clearly that BoB was the only exception to the normal Baptismal ceremony because all of the Sacramental elements (aka matter and form) were present.  St. Cyprian called BoB a SACRAMENT and explained that the angels pronounced the words of the form over the dying martyr, whose blood served as the matter for the Sacrament.

    We have several Church Fathers rule out BoD by saying that martyrdom is the ONLY EXCEPTION to normal Baptism.  But even then they held it was no real exception because all the elements were there.

    This pretending that the BoB Fathers accepted BoD by inference is absurd and dishonest.  Even St. Alphonsus admits that they're different, with BoB acting "quasi ex opere operato".


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #65 on: February 22, 2021, 08:45:49 AM »
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    The 700 years of unanimous teaching against BOD, touted by Lad, has been refuted, thus putting another hole into the deniers of BOD’s theory.

    You miss the whole point.  There has never been a consensus pro-BOD at any time in Church History.  St Augustine never said anyone had to believe it; neither did St Ambrose or any other Church Father; neither did St Thomas, nor St Bellarmine.  Only Fr Cekada says it's theologically certain and then St Alphonsus comes out of the blue with his "de fide" statement. 
    .
    Trent did not define BOD, it didn't explain it, it didn't show how it was always part of Tradition, or how it is implicitly contained in Scripture.  BOD is not something taught "everywhere, always and by all".  It has been speculated about "sometimes, by a few, for a long time". 
    .
    MirariV, can you give us your definition of BOD, with examples, and we'll see if you and Xavier agree? 

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #66 on: February 22, 2021, 08:48:59 AM »
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  • St. Ambrose
    Quote
    Quote
    If he has died without Baptism, I now keep back what I know.

    I've not seen this, and this clearly proves my assertion that there's some question about whether he died without Baptism and perhaps some news that he received emergency Baptism.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #67 on: February 22, 2021, 08:53:46 AM »
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  • As I said before, BOD and BOB don’t require the reception of the sacrament of baptism which in essence puts a big hole into the BOD denier’s theory since in both cases they are similar in that the actual sacrament is not absolutely necessary and can be satisfied in another way.

    It has repeatedly now been explained to you that the Church Fathers did not consider BoB to be an exception because they believed it to merely an alternate mode of confecting the SACRAMENT.  St. Cyprian clearly stated this, calling BoB the Sacrament, that the angels spoke the words of the form over a dying martyr, whose blood served as the water, and the 5th century theological manual that was cited explicitly detailed that BoB worked because all the Sacramental elements were present (aka matter and form).  That's why they referred to it as Baptism of BLOOD, and not Baptism of Martyrdom ... because they viewed the Blood as washing them the same way as water (with the angels supplying the missing form).  So no exception to the Sacrament.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #68 on: February 22, 2021, 09:21:54 AM »
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  • The 700 years of unanimous teaching against BOD, touted by Lad, has been refuted, thus putting another hole into the deniers of BOD’s theory.

    Could you actually please READ what I wrote?  I wasn't saying there was 700 years of unanimous teaching against BoD.  This is the second or third time now that you've misunderstood (or deliberately distorted?) something I wrote.

    I was citing a different doctrine, St. Augustine's teaching that unbaptized infants go to hell and suffer (albeit very mildly).

    Point here is a counter-example to Xavier's allegation that something held unanimously is effectively infallible.

    Abelard was the first to question this doctrine, and the Church ended up agreeing and Magisterially overturning this opinion that had been unanimously held for 700 years.  Read all about it in Catholic Encyclopedia.  Xavier admitted this on a different thread.

    It's a good thing that Vatican I didn't define the Cekadist theory that the universal consensus of theologians is yet another form of infallibility.  Of course, suddenly Xavier finds an ally in the dogmatic sedevacantist Fr. Cekada.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #69 on: February 22, 2021, 09:31:31 AM »
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  • Fr. Cekada, God rest his soul, wasn't a dogmatic sedevacantist. The Dimonds are dogmatic sedevacantists, believing sedevacantism is dogma. I've spoken to Fr. Cekada on Suscipe Domine, where Father used to post, and elsewhere. I don't agree with him on everything, and pointed out UEA and other things to Father when dialoging with him - which was a pleasant conversation both ways - but Father is right here about Catholic Theologians. Pope Bl. Pius IX's words on the subject, the same Pope who defined PI and OUM, prove as much.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #70 on: February 22, 2021, 09:45:25 AM »
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  • Quote
    Fr. Cekada, God rest his soul, wasn't a dogmatic sedevacantist.

    :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:  Fr Cekada is the father of dogmatic sedeism in our times!!
    .
    You have no credibility anymore.  I can't trust you know what you're talking about at all.


    Offline Mirari Vos

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #71 on: February 22, 2021, 09:45:30 AM »
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  • Hugh of St. Victor was WRONG.


    Do you see a problem with this? I intend you no offense , but this is just plain pride. Sorry, I admit you are an intelligent person, smarter than I, but your pride clouds your reason. You are speculating against doctrine that has been held unanimously for 500 years. You are questioning a belief that ALL Popes, ALL bishops, and ALL theologians have agreed on, to one qualification or another, for half a millennia. The Church can’t do that. The Church CANNOT allow a false belief to be held by every Catholic for 500 years and not only say nothing, but actually promote it and defend it. This is very similar to what you accuse R&R people of doing.


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #72 on: February 22, 2021, 09:58:42 AM »
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  • @Pax Vobis. I've actually conversed with Fr. Cekada. Have you?

    I know what Dogmatic SVism is, and completely disagree with it.

    Unless someone has redefined the term, Fr. C was not a DSV in my opinion. 

    You can agree or disagree with me just as you want about it.

    It has nothing to do with the subject here. Catechisms have taught BOD as Church Teaching.

    Manuals have taught BOD to seminarians, and all who became Priests would be familiar with it.

    That includes those who went on to become Popes, Saints and Doctors. They have taught it too.

    Give us examples of something Catholic Theologians have held to be de fide which was later heresy.

    Did the Council of Trent teach BOD? Theologians are unanimous it did. Pope Bl. Pius IX says we must agree.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #73 on: February 22, 2021, 09:58:45 AM »
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  • Quote
    You are speculating against doctrine that has been held unanimously for 500 years

    This is not proven at all. 
    .
    MirariV, can you give us your definition of BOD, with examples, and we'll see if you and Xavier agree? 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #74 on: February 22, 2021, 10:01:43 AM »
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    @Pax Vobis. I've actually conversed with Fr. Cekada. Have you?

    I know what Dogmatic SVism is, and completely disagree with it.

    Unless someone has redefined the term, Fr. C was not a DSV in my opinion.

    Fr Cekada was widely written on the topic.  What he wrote, he wrote.  I also have many, many, many (to fill a book) stories of friends who live in the OH area and have been (and still are) turned away from the sacraments by Fr Cekada and +Dolan for not being sede.  Their 'dogmatic sede' actions far, far outweigh anything Fr Cekada told you.
    .
    I don't trust your audio/reading comprehension when it comes to your talks with Fr Cekada.  You have some sort of undiagnosed learning disability, or simply bad will.