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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 39781 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2021, 08:45:49 AM »
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The 700 years of unanimous teaching against BOD, touted by Lad, has been refuted, thus putting another hole into the deniers of BOD’s theory.

You miss the whole point.  There has never been a consensus pro-BOD at any time in Church History.  St Augustine never said anyone had to believe it; neither did St Ambrose or any other Church Father; neither did St Thomas, nor St Bellarmine.  Only Fr Cekada says it's theologically certain and then St Alphonsus comes out of the blue with his "de fide" statement. 
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Trent did not define BOD, it didn't explain it, it didn't show how it was always part of Tradition, or how it is implicitly contained in Scripture.  BOD is not something taught "everywhere, always and by all".  It has been speculated about "sometimes, by a few, for a long time". 
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MirariV, can you give us your definition of BOD, with examples, and we'll see if you and Xavier agree? 
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2021, 08:48:59 AM »
Quote from: trad123 on February 21, 2021, 05:05:27 PM
St. Ambrose
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If he has died without Baptism, I now keep back what I know.

I've not seen this, and this clearly proves my assertion that there's some question about whether he died without Baptism and perhaps some news that he received emergency Baptism.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2021, 08:53:46 AM »
Quote from: Mirari Vos on February 22, 2021, 03:18:25 AM
As I said before, BOD and BOB don’t require the reception of the sacrament of baptism which in essence puts a big hole into the BOD denier’s theory since in both cases they are similar in that the actual sacrament is not absolutely necessary and can be satisfied in another way.

It has repeatedly now been explained to you that the Church Fathers did not consider BoB to be an exception because they believed it to merely an alternate mode of confecting the SACRAMENT.  St. Cyprian clearly stated this, calling BoB the Sacrament, that the angels spoke the words of the form over a dying martyr, whose blood served as the water, and the 5th century theological manual that was cited explicitly detailed that BoB worked because all the Sacramental elements were present (aka matter and form).  That's why they referred to it as Baptism of BLOOD, and not Baptism of Martyrdom ... because they viewed the Blood as washing them the same way as water (with the angels supplying the missing form).  So no exception to the Sacrament.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2021, 09:21:54 AM »
Quote from: Mirari Vos on February 22, 2021, 03:18:25 AM
The 700 years of unanimous teaching against BOD, touted by Lad, has been refuted, thus putting another hole into the deniers of BOD’s theory.

Could you actually please READ what I wrote?  I wasn't saying there was 700 years of unanimous teaching against BoD.  This is the second or third time now that you've misunderstood (or deliberately distorted?) something I wrote.

I was citing a different doctrine, St. Augustine's teaching that unbaptized infants go to hell and suffer (albeit very mildly).

Point here is a counter-example to Xavier's allegation that something held unanimously is effectively infallible.

Abelard was the first to question this doctrine, and the Church ended up agreeing and Magisterially overturning this opinion that had been unanimously held for 700 years.  Read all about it in Catholic Encyclopedia.  Xavier admitted this on a different thread.

It's a good thing that Vatican I didn't define the Cekadist theory that the universal consensus of theologians is yet another form of infallibility.  Of course, suddenly Xavier finds an ally in the dogmatic sedevacantist Fr. Cekada.
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Offline Nishant Xavier

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2021, 09:31:31 AM »
Fr. Cekada, God rest his soul, wasn't a dogmatic sedevacantist. The Dimonds are dogmatic sedevacantists, believing sedevacantism is dogma. I've spoken to Fr. Cekada on Suscipe Domine, where Father used to post, and elsewhere. I don't agree with him on everything, and pointed out UEA and other things to Father when dialoging with him - which was a pleasant conversation both ways - but Father is right here about Catholic Theologians. Pope Bl. Pius IX's words on the subject, the same Pope who defined PI and OUM, prove as much.
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