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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 39793 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2021, 08:33:45 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 21, 2021, 08:48:35 PM
Firstly, concerning St Augustine, I can only say that he went back and forth on the issue.  If he were alive today, he could give a clear answer but his writings do contradict themselves, to some degree.

I wish to explain what is meant by "back and forth".  He did not go back and forth in the sense that he favored BoD, then rejected it, then favored it again.  Early on after his conversation, he floated what he admitted was speculation regarding BoD ... after having gone back and forth in his mind about it.  It was a very tentative piece of speculative theology ... and he admits it.  THEN, after he matured and had battled the Pelagians, he forcefully rejected the opinion and has issued some of the strongest anti-BoD statements in existence.  Once he rejected BoD, he did not ever go back to it, and his final position was one of rejecting BoD as Pelagian.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2021, 08:37:08 AM »
Quote from: Mirari Vos on February 21, 2021, 03:35:16 PM
Hugh of St. Victor, a proponent of BOD, says that Saint Augustine didn’t reject his early opinion on BOD, he only rejected the example he used: (see highlight in red, but read the whole tract)

Hugh of St. Victor was WRONG.

https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

Even if you persist in pretending that St. Augustine believed in it, that makes exactly one Church Father who did.  Strangely, then his disciple Church Father Fulgentius explicitly rejected it ... along with several other Church Fathers ... along with that 5th-century theology manual attributed by some to St. Augustine.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2021, 08:38:11 AM »
St Ambrose said in other works that water was necessary (Duties of Clergy):
"Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."  No one is excepted: not the infant, not the one prevented by some necessity.
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So here we have another example (in addition to St Augustine) where a Church Father who is a "BOD supporter" contradicts BOD some other time. 
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As for Saint Cyprian, regardless of whether he held that re-baptism was necessary, that doesn’t take away from the fact that Saint Cyprian held that those who he believed were not validly baptized, could still be saved.
St Cyprian was excommunicated for his flawed views on baptism and re-baptism.  He's a saint and much holier than I am, but his views on baptism can't be trusted.
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BOD and BOB don’t require the reception of the sacrament of baptism which in essence puts a big hole into the BOD denier’s theory since in both cases they are similar in that the actual sacrament is not absolutely necessary and can be satisfied in another way. Thus, if you believe in BOB, you really should have no problem believing in BOD.

Not true at all.  You need to read more on the Church Fathers.  BOB was explained as a sacrament; BOD has never been.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2021, 08:40:56 AM »
Quote from: Mirari Vos on February 21, 2021, 04:28:44 PM

St. Ambrose is not in the least bit ambiguous. Everyone should read his words below and see for themselves.

Ridiculous, Mirari.  You're showing yourself to be of bad will now.

St. Ambrose simply said that he received the grace he asked for ... which is ambiguous.  It implies that if he didn't receive the Sacrament, then it's because he didn't truly seek it.  So it could be read as the opposite.

This was before news travelled quickly, and the details were likely not all available.  Was there a possibility that one of his attendants baptized him as he lay dying? Or was it possible, as some Fathers held, that the angels pronounced the words of Baptism over a dying martyr?  So could this be a reference to BoB?  Valentinian was in fact killed for rejecting Arianism.

https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

You feigned being sincere and of good will here, but now you're exposing yourself ... as most BoDers usually do.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2021, 08:45:31 AM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 22, 2021, 08:38:11 AM
Not true at all.  You need to read more on the Church Fathers.  BOB was explained as a sacrament; BOD has never been.

I cited that 5th century theology manual that for a long time had been attributed to St. Augustine, stating quite clearly that BoB was the only exception to the normal Baptismal ceremony because all of the Sacramental elements (aka matter and form) were present.  St. Cyprian called BoB a SACRAMENT and explained that the angels pronounced the words of the form over the dying martyr, whose blood served as the matter for the Sacrament.

We have several Church Fathers rule out BoD by saying that martyrdom is the ONLY EXCEPTION to normal Baptism.  But even then they held it was no real exception because all the elements were there.

This pretending that the BoB Fathers accepted BoD by inference is absurd and dishonest.  Even St. Alphonsus admits that they're different, with BoB acting "quasi ex opere operato".
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