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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 39793 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2021, 08:48:35 PM »
Mirari Vos,
You commit the same error of Xavier, by mixing and matching BOD with BOB.  Firstly, concerning St Augustine, I can only say that he went back and forth on the issue.  If he were alive today, he could give a clear answer but his writings do contradict themselves, to some degree.
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Regarding St Bernard, he is basing his argument on St Augustine and St Ambrose, but...he is only putting forth his personal opinion.  Nowhere does St Bernard say his theology is de fide, or a certainty of faith, nor does it have a theological consensus.  So we are free to reject it or accept it.  It's just an opinion.
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St Ambrose:

Quote
Or if the fact disturbs you that the mysteries have not been solemnly celebrated, then you should realize that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated.  But if they are washed in their own blood, his piety and his desire have washed him, also.

This is clearly BOB, so it's not related to BOD.  Irrelevant to the thread.
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St Cyprian:

Quote
But some one says, "What, then, shall become of those who in past times, coming from heresy to the Church, were received without baptism?"  The Lord is able by His mercy to give indulgence, and not to separate from the gifts of His Church those who by simplicity were admitted into the Church, and in the Church have fallen asleep. [ Marari Vos: I don’t believe he was questioning the validity of the heretics baptism, but rather that the heretics who converted, weren’t baptized at all]

St Cyprian is not talking about BOD, but about re-baptizing heretics who want to repent and come back to the Faith.  St Cyprian held that re-baptism is necessary, was wrong, was rebuked by the pope and recanted his error.  Based on his flawed views on baptism, I don't think anyone should consider his quotes on BOD or BOB as orthodox or relevant.
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Summary:  Your only pro-BOD "proof" is the opinion/theories of St Bernard, who based his arguments on St Ambrose (whose quotes on Valentinian are misunderstood and taken out of context) and St Augustine (who flip-flopped on the issue).  Not very weighty arguments.

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2021, 11:51:01 PM »

It appears Xavier Sem is taking a position that permits him to also maintain that Archbishop Lefebvre's statement/belief that people can be saved "in other religions, but not by them" doesn't contradict his personal belief  that one must have explicit Christ to be saved.
His revealed belief is the same as the False BODer, Lover of Truth, the CI all time king of starting BOD threads, with like over 10x more threads than XavierSem.  Been there seen that. All it is, is an end run around all the dogmas on EENS and the sacraments, and what they end up teaching instead is "who knows who is outside of the Church, and who knows who didn't receive the sacraments". It is just a last gasp rationalization to hold onto their sanity when besieged on all sides against all of their glaring inconsistencies.  

By comparison one has to respect Fr. Cekada for his honest defense:


Quote
The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”


( P.S. - That quote by Fr. Cekada, may he rest in peace, needs to be updated to address a defined BOD, the limited BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas. Below is what  the false BODers really believe TODAY concerning the limited BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas Aquinas:
 
 
“With the strict, literal interpretation of the limited BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas Aquinas, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who do not have explicit desire to be baptized or explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-believers - Muslim, Hindus, Buddhists, Jҽωs.... who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”)


Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2021, 02:12:16 AM »


Are you using this as the source of quotes?


Sources of Baptism of Blood & Baptism of Desire

https://archive.org/details/SourcesOfBaptismOfBloodBaptismOfDesire/page/n31/mode/2up?

Page 14




Amazon doesn't allow preview of the following book anymore, nor does Google:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0879071672/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0879071672&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

I posted an excerpt here, but I only wrote the page numbers, not the title of the docuмent:




If that's the same letter, the following was omitted in part:
Yes, that is the book and thanks for the additional quote.

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2021, 03:18:25 AM »
Mirari Vos,
You commit the same error of Xavier, by mixing and matching BOD with BOB.  Firstly, concerning St Augustine, I can only say that he went back and forth on the issue.  If he were alive today, he could give a clear answer but his writings do contradict themselves, to some degree.
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Regarding St Bernard, he is basing his argument on St Augustine and St Ambrose, but...he is only putting forth his personal opinion.  Nowhere does St Bernard say his theology is de fide, or a certainty of faith, nor does it have a theological consensus.  So we are free to reject it or accept it.  It's just an opinion.
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St Ambrose:

This is clearly BOB, so it's not related to BOD.  Irrelevant to the thread.
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St Cyprian:

St Cyprian is not talking about BOD, but about re-baptizing heretics who want to repent and come back to the Faith.  St Cyprian held that re-baptism is necessary, was wrong, was rebuked by the pope and recanted his error.  Based on his flawed views on baptism, I don't think anyone should consider his quotes on BOD or BOB as orthodox or relevant.
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Summary:  Your only pro-BOD "proof" is the opinion/theories of St Bernard, who based his arguments on St Ambrose (whose quotes on Valentinian are misunderstood and taken out of context) and St Augustine (who flip-flopped on the issue).  Not very weighty arguments.

As I said before, BOD and BOB don’t require the reception of the sacrament of baptism which in essence puts a big hole into the BOD denier’s theory since in both cases they are similar in that the actual sacrament is not absolutely necessary and can be satisfied in another way. Thus, if you believe in BOB, you really should have no problem believing in BOD. Some pre Trent theologians may have alluded to the idea that their blood was used in place of water, but this wasn’t as common as you would have us believe. I have hardly conflated the two by stating this.

The quote from St. Ambrose is unambiguously BOD, I cannot believe how anyone can believe otherwise. Valentinian was not martyred.

The 700 years of unanimous teaching against BOD, touted by Lad, has been refuted, thus putting another hole into the deniers of BOD’s theory.

BOD and BOB has been taught unanimously post Trent and was held by a number of theologians to be either de fide or another theological qualification close to it.

There are ABSOLUTELY NO theologian who holds or has held your opinion post Trent. What you and Lad are doing is the same as what the R&R people do to the Church’s teachings on the pope and the magisterium with regard to the  sedevacantist position, you make your belief fit no matter what. Lower the status of the pope/lower the status of the theologians. This is attested to the fact that you tried to disparage Saint Bernard’s opinion.

As for Saint Cyprian, regardless of whether he held that re-baptism was necessary, that doesn’t take away from the fact that Saint Cyprian held that those who he believed were not validly baptized, could still be saved. In other words, he thought that the former heretics that came back to the Church and were invalidly baptized could still be saved through God’s mercy (BOD). Do you see?  Look at the quote again:

But some one says, "What, then, shall become of those who in past times, coming from heresy to the Church, were received without baptism?"  The Lord is able by His mercy to give indulgence, and not to separate from the gifts of His Church those who by simplicity were admitted into the Church, and in the Church have fallen asleep.

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2021, 07:49:27 AM »
@Mirari Vos, Some Excellent Points.

@Pax Vobis. Pax probably hasn't read either St. Alphonsus or Pope St. Pius X, as his last response reveals he doesn't know that Baptism of Desire IS Perfect Contrition. Also, when St. Bernard speaks of faith, he means the "living faith that works by charity", that justifies. 

Fr. Haydock on Luk 7:47: "She was justified by the living faith that works by charity, and this is the doctrine of the Catholic Church".

St. Alphonsus: "But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water ... Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire"

Pope St. Pius X: "The absence of Baptism may be supplied by an act of perfect love of God or of contrition ... along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire"

Also, Pope St. Pius V has pre-emptively condemned the Jansenist Dimonds in the Jansenist Michael Baius: "CONDEMNED:
  • Perfect and sincere charity, which is from a “pure heart and good conscience and a faith not feigned” (1 Tim. 1:5) can be in catechumens as well as in penitents without the remission of sins.
  • That charity which is the fullness of the law is not always connected with the remission of sins."
From: https://cmri.org/articles-on-the-traditional-catholic-faith/baptism-of-blood-and-of-desire/

Thus, the following propositions are dogmatic Truths, after Pope St. Pius V and the Council of Trent:

1. Perfect and Sincere Charity, in both Catechumens and Penitents, avails the Remission of Sins. (See also the Roman Catechism).
2. That Charity which is the fullness of the law IS always necessarily connected with the Remission of Sins, i.e. Confers Justification.

Catechism of Pope St. Pius V, and St. Charles Borromeo, of the Council of Trent: "if any unforeseen accident prevents them from being washed in the salutary waters, their desire and intention to receive Baptism will avail them to Grace and Righteousness".

Yes, every post-Tridentine Theologian clearly considers Baptism of Desire is taught by the Church. Some of them, probably because simply no one was even contesting it, just clearly and expressly teach the doctrine without mentioning an express theological note.

Here are some examples. If you follow the Dimonds on this matter, you are not in peace and communion with the Catholic Church.

"I. FR. DOMINIC PRUMMER, O.P., Moral Theology, 1949:
  • “Baptism of Desire which is a perfect act of charity that includes at least implicitly the desire for Baptism by water”;
  • “Baptism of Blood which signifies martyrdom endured for Christ prior to the reception of Baptism by Water”;
  • “Regarding the effects of Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire… both cause sanctifying grace. …Baptism of Blood usually remits all venial sin and temporal punishment…”
II. FR. FRANCIS O’CONNELL, Outlines of Moral Theology, 1953:
  • “Baptism of Desire… is an act of divine charity or perfect contrition…”
  • “These means (i.e. Baptism of Blood and Desire) presuppose in the recipient at least the implicit will to receive the sacrament.”
  • “…Even if an infant can gain the benefit of the Baptism of Blood if he is put to death by a person actuated by hatred for the Christian faith….”
III. MGR. J. H. HERVE, Manuale Theologiae Dogmaticae (Vol. III: chap. IV), 1931
II. On those for whom Baptism of water can be supplied:
The various baptisms: from the Tridentinum itself and from the things stated, it stands firm that Baptism is necessary, yet in fact or in desire; therefore in an extraordinary case it can be supplied. Further, according to the Catholic doctrine, there are two things by which the sacrament of Baptism can be supplied: namely, an act of perfect charity with the desire of Baptism, and the death as martyr. Since these two are a compensation for Baptism of water, they themselves are called Baptism, too, in order that they may be comprehended with it under one, as it were, generic name, so the act of love with desire for Baptism is called Baptismus flaminis (Baptism of the Spirit) and the martyrium (Baptism of Blood).
IV. FR. H. NOLDEN, S.J., FR. A. SCHMIT, S.J. — Summa theologiae moralis (Vol. III de Sacramentis), Book 2 Quaestio prima, 1921
Baptism of spirit (flaminis) is perfect charity or contrition, in which the desire in fact to receive the sacrament of Baptism is included; perfect charity and perfect contrition, however, have the power to confer sanctifying grace.
V. FR. ARTHUR VERMEERSCH, S.J., Theologiae Moralis (Vol. III), Tractatus II,1948:
The Baptism of spirit (flaminis) is an act of perfect charity or contrition, in so far as it contains at least a tacit desire of the Sacrament. Therefore it can be had only in adults. It does not imprint a character; …but it takes away all mortal sin together with the sentence of eternal penalty, according to: “He who loves me, is loved by my Father” (John 14:21).
VI. FR. LUDOVICO BILLOT, S.J., De Ecclesiae Sacmmentis (Vol. I); Quaestio LXVI; Thesis XXIV – 1931:
Baptism of spirit (flaminis), which is also called of repentance or of desire, is nothing else than an act of charity or perfect contrition including a desire of the Sacrament, according to what has been said above, namely that the heart of everyone is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe, and to love God, and to be sorry for his sins.
VII. FR. ALOYSIA SABETTI, S.J., FR. TIMOTHEO BARRETT, S.J., Compendium Theologiae Moralis, Tractatus XII [De Baptismo, Chapter I, 1926:
Baptism, the gate and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire, is necessary for all unto salvation…
From the Baptism of water, which is called of river (Baptismus fluminis), is from Baptism of the Spirit (Baptismus flaminis) and Baptism of Blood, by which Baptism properly speaking can be supplied, if this be impossible. The first one is a full conversion to God through perfect contrition or charity, in so far as it contains an either explicit or at least implicit will to receive Baptism of water… Baptism of Spirit (flaminis) and Baptism of Blood are called Baptism of desire (in voto).
VIII. FR. EDUARDUS GENICOT, S.]., Theologiae Moralis Institutiones (Vol. II),Tractatus XII, 1902
Baptism of the Spirit (flaminis) consists in an act of perfect charity or contrition, with which there is always an infusion of sanctifying grace connected…
Both are called “of desire” (in voto)…; perfect charity, because it has always connected the desire, at least the implicit one, of receiving this sacrament, absolutely necessary for salvation."