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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 39790 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2021, 11:15:35 AM »
Syllogism:

Major: Catholic Theologians post Trent unanimously say that the Council of Trent taught Baptism of Desire.
Minor: What Theologians unanimously teach as having been taught by the Church is guaranteed by the OUM.
Conclusion: Therefore, the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church infallibly guarantees BOD is true.

This syllogism, like all of your syllogisms, is total crap.  As pointed out, the MAJORITY of the post-Tridentine theologians cited by Fr. Cekada do NOT hold that it's "at least theologically certain" ... which they would have to do if they felt it was taught by Trent.  Consequently, the MAJORITY of theologians do not believe that Trent taught it.

I completely reject the minor, which you pulled out of your ass ... or Fr. Cekada's (BTW, do you agree with his dogmatic sedevacantism ... since you promote him as an authority here?)  Non-condemnation by the church has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH OUM.  Vatican I's defintion of OUM says that something has to be held by the Church ... always and everywhere ... AS DIVINELY REVEALED (i.e. de fide) and we see that only SEVEN of the TWENTY-FIVE theologians cited by Cekada hold this.

YOU ADMITTED on another thread that all theologians universally held the opinion of St. Augustine that unbaptized infants go to hell, and that this opinion was later rejected by the Church.  SO WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR MINOR?  Answer:  it's garbage made up out of thin air.

Online Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2021, 11:20:37 AM »
Major: Popes have said St. Alphonsus can be safely followed in what the Doctor taught in Theologia Moralis.
Minor: St. Alphonsus teaches that Souls are saved by BOD is de fide because of Trent in Theologia Moralis.
Conclusion: Therefore, all Catholics - even without knowing reasons - can safely teach BOD is de fide dogma.

Yes, Xavier, you are free to "TEACH" that it's de fide, but your teaching doesn't mean squat.  So carry on "teaching".  Correct, the Church has never condemned the opinion of some theologians that it's de fide.  Nor, however, has it condemned the teaching of those theologians who DON'T hold that it's de fide ... which is actually most of them by Father Cekada's own survey.

Not only is BoD not de fide but I hold that it's at the very most an unproven (and unprovable) piece of speculative theology, which derived from emotional considerations rather than from theological premises, and I agree with St. Augustine that it's very likely at-least-semi-Pelagian error.  I also agree with the other 5 or 6 Fathers who rejected BoD, and I agree with that 5th-century manual as well.


Online Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2021, 11:25:04 AM »
Major: Catechisms approved by the Church for centuries and used by Bishops throughout the world have taught BOD as divinely revealed Church Teaching.
Minor: But the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church cannot teach error for centuries in what it proposes as divinely revealed Church Teaching.
Conclusion: Therefore, the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church once more shows us that BOD is divinely revealed Church Teaching.

Your major is more bovine excrement.  I don't know of any catechism which teaches that BoD is "divinely revealed".  In, fact only SEVEN out of TWENTY-FIVE post-Tridentine theologians would agree with that ... so, it's a minority opinion.

You skip a step also in your syllogism.  It's obvious you haven't taken a course in logic yet despite attempting syllogisms.

That step is that catechisms are the OUM ... which I categorically reject.  On this point, the Dimonds have cited several authorities to that effect, so please look them up.

Online Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2021, 11:30:33 AM »
Xavier, over and over you demonstrate bad will when it comes to this issue ... and others.

You're a very emotional person, which is why I called you XavierFem for a while, with itchy ears for private revelation, and this bleeds over into major logical errors in your syllogisms and other arguments.  As emotional as you are, you really aren't suited to doing actual theology.

Fr. Cekada admitted his own emotional reason for wanting to believe in BoD, and it is these very same emotional reasons that are behind ALL proponents of BoD ... except for a few who just parroted it back without fully studying the question.

Those with open minds and sincerely seeking the truth, once they actually dig into and study the question, come away with the same conclusion, that BoD is a piece of speculative theology that has been tolerated by the Church.  I think that this is very clear, and the Dimonds cross the line by considering to be formal heretics those who believe in even a BoD for catechumens.

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2021, 11:38:22 AM »
LOL. It is obvious the Dimonds have confused you on the matter. The Dimonds believe and said that Pope St. Pius X taught heresy in his Catechism. Consistent with their own principles, they should declare him a heretic, and the Papacy vacant since his time. Sorry, but I won't be looking to the Dimonds for much of anything. Regarding what I said about the OUM, I would have thought it was obvious.

Here is Adolphe Tanqueray: "Tanquerey, The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium AD. Tanquerey, A Manual of Dogmatic Theology, transl. by Rev. Msgr. John J. Byrnes, Desclee, New York, 1959, pp. 176-182. 

"290 Bishops teach the flock entrusted and subject to them by means of catechisms, by synodal directives, mandates, and in public sermons. If it is evident from these docuмents that some doctrine is being set forth universally as an object of faith, then nothing else is required for this doctrine to be accepted de fide. Bishops spread throughout the world, but with the Roman Pontiff forming one Corporate Body, are infallible when declaring a teaching on faith or morals.

I'll get back to the rest later. Btw, here's a Catechism that teaches BOD is divinely revealed, and the Church is certain it can save us.

"Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?

A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching."

From: http://www.baltimore-catechism.com/lesson14.htm

Edit: Just saw your last post. Going back to lying, are you Liarslaus? You once conceded Baptism of Desire, but had no stability. 

Catholics who have learnt sacred theology well are not "tossed about by every wind of doctrine" in matters decided by the Church.