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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 7646 times)

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Offline Mirari Vos

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #75 on: February 22, 2021, 10:13:07 AM »
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  • Ridiculous, Mirari.  You're showing yourself to be of bad will now.

    St. Ambrose simply said that he received the grace he asked for ... which is ambiguous.  It implies that if he didn't receive the Sacrament, then it's because he didn't truly seek it.  So it could be read as the opposite.

    This was before news travelled quickly, and the details were likely not all available.  Was there a possibility that one of his attendants baptized him as he lay dying? Or was it possible, as some Fathers held, that the angels pronounced the words of Baptism over a dying martyr?  So could this be a reference to BoB?  Valentinian was in fact killed for rejecting Arianism.

    https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

    You feigned being sincere and of good will here, but now you're exposing yourself ... as most BoDers usually do.

    Ladislaus, you are truly being disingenuous. You know very well that St. Ambrose’s words DON’T ‘simply say that he received the grace he asked for’. Pray tell me what other grace could he be possibly referring to? To say that it “could be read as the opposite” is plainly bogus.

    You MUST tear down this and every other, piece of evidence in order to advance your own home cooked theory, and I’m the one who is of bad will? I’m the one who is not being sincere? Also, what I highlighted in red further confirms that he is referring to BOD. Here are his words again:

    But I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacrament of baptism.  Tell me:  What else is in your power other than the desire, the request?  But he even had this desire for a long time, that, when he should come into Italy, he would be initiated, and recently he signified a desire to be baptized by me, and for this reason above all others he thought that I ought to be summoned.  Has he not, then, the grace which he desired; has he not the grace which he requested?  And because he asked, he received, and therefore is it said:  "By whatsoever death the just man shall be overtaken, his soul shall be at rest." (Wisdom 4:7)  52. Grant, therefore, O holy Father, to thy servant the gift which Moses received, because he saw in spirit; the gift which David merited, because he knew from revelation.  Grant, I pray, to Thy servant Valentinian the gift which he longed for, the gift which he requested while in health, vigor, and security.  If, stricken with sickness, he had deferred it, he would not be entirely without Thy mercy who has been cheated by the swiftness of time, not by his own wish.  Grant, therefore, to Thy servant the gift of Thy grace which he never rejected, who on the day before his death refused to restore the privileges of the temples although he was pressed by those whom he could well have feared.  A crowd of pagans was present, the Senate entreated, but he was not afraid to displease men so long as he pleased Thee alone in Christ.  He who had Thy Spirit, how has he not received Thy grace?”

    “Or if the fact disturbs you that the mysteries have not been solemnly celebrated, then you should realize that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated.  But if they are washed in their own blood, his piety and his desire have washed him, also.”


    Offline Mirari Vos

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #76 on: February 22, 2021, 10:23:54 AM »
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  • It has repeatedly now been explained to you that the Church Fathers did not consider BoB to be an exception because they believed it to merely an alternate mode of confecting the SACRAMENT.  St. Cyprian clearly stated this, calling BoB the Sacrament, that the angels spoke the words of the form over a dying martyr, whose blood served as the water, and the 5th century theological manual that was cited explicitly detailed that BoB worked because all the Sacramental elements were present (aka matter and form).  That's why they referred to it as Baptism of BLOOD, and not Baptism of Martyrdom ... because they viewed the Blood as washing them the same way as water (with the angels supplying the missing form).  So no exception to the Sacrament.
    Are you saying that all of the Fathers of the Church who held BOB believed this? If so, please give me the references.


    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #77 on: February 22, 2021, 10:24:57 AM »
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  • St. Ambrose clearly refers to Baptism of Desire. St. Thomas refers to St. Ambrose as having done so.

    Pax Vobis, I see you cannot stick to the subject. Even if Fr. Cekada was a dogmatic sedevacantist, it is irrelevant to whether the OUM has taught BOD. That is the real topic of this thread here, and of course the Jansenist Bauisites BOD-deniers run from it.

    I already showed Pope St. Pius V condemned your ideas, and must have posted 10 other sources from Catholic Theologians.

    Copy paste and refute this, let's see: "Here is Fr. Adolphe Tanqueray: "Tanquerey, The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium AD. Tanquerey, A Manual of Dogmatic Theology, transl. by Rev. Msgr. John J. Byrnes, Desclee, New York, 1959, pp. 176-182. 

    "290 Bishops teach the flock entrusted and subject to them by means of catechisms, by synodal directives, mandates, and in public sermons. If it is evident from these docuмents that some doctrine is being set forth universally as an object of faith, then nothing else is required for this doctrine to be accepted de fide. Bishops spread throughout the world, but with the Roman Pontiff forming one Corporate Body, are infallible when declaring a teaching on faith or morals.

    I'll get back to the rest later. Btw, here's a Catechism that teaches BOD is divinely revealed, and the Church is certain it can save us.

    "Q. 654. How do we know that the baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water?

    A. We know that baptism of desire or of blood will save us when it is impossible to receive the baptism of water, from Holy Scripture, which teaches that love of God and perfect contrition can secure the remission of sins ; and also that Our Lord promises salvation to those who lay down their life for His sake or for His teaching."

    From: http://www.baltimore-catechism.com/lesson14.htm
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline Mirari Vos

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #78 on: February 22, 2021, 10:27:26 AM »
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  • I cited that 5th century theology manual that for a long time had been attributed to St. Augustine, stating quite clearly that BoB was the only exception to the normal Baptismal ceremony because all of the Sacramental elements (aka matter and form) were present.  St. Cyprian called BoB a SACRAMENT and explained that the angels pronounced the words of the form over the dying martyr, whose blood served as the matter for the Sacrament.

    We have several Church Fathers rule out BoD by saying that martyrdom is the ONLY EXCEPTION to normal Baptism.  But even then they held it was no real exception because all the elements were there.

    This pretending that the BoB Fathers accepted BoD by inference is absurd and dishonest.  Even St. Alphonsus admits that they're different, with BoB acting "quasi ex opere operato".
    I never said that BOB and BOD weren’t different, I was pointing out that they were similar in the fact that both did not rely on the actual sacrament with water.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #79 on: February 22, 2021, 10:28:46 AM »
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  • Quote
    “Or if the fact disturbs you that the mysteries have not been solemnly celebrated, then you should realize that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated.  But if they are washed in their own blood, his piety and his desire have washed him, also.”

    Reading comprehension, people!!  Such a lack of reading comprehension...
    .
    St Ambrose is distinguishing between baptism being "solemnly celebrated" (i.e. performed publically, at Eastertime, or at least in a church, in front of his family/friends, the same ones who were grieving) and just a simple "initiation" of baptism (i.e. done in jail, in a hospital or on a deathbed).
    .
    If St Ambrose is supporting BOD, why would he make reference that not even martyrs are crowned/saved if they are not initiated/baptized?  It makes no sense and doesn't support your view.
    .
    St Ambrose is clearly giving a "pep talk" to those who are grieving, telling them that Valentinian was prepared and wanted baptism and even though he did not receive it SOLEMNLY (i.e. in a church), St Ambrose openly prays to the Holy Father that he did receive it before he died.  St Ambrose is not teaching a doctrine; he is telling people that God is not deceived and that if Valentinian truly desired baptism (which they all thought he did) then he would receive it non-solemnly (i.e. not in a church). 
    .
    At the end, St Ambrose reiterates doctrine that even a martyr is not saved without baptism, which clearly applies to Valentinian.


    Offline Mirari Vos

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #80 on: February 22, 2021, 10:30:06 AM »
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  • Could you actually please READ what I wrote?  I wasn't saying there was 700 years of unanimous teaching against BoD.  This is the second or third time now that you've misunderstood (or deliberately distorted?) something I wrote.

    I was citing a different doctrine, St. Augustine's teaching that unbaptized infants go to hell and suffer (albeit very mildly).
    Sorry, my apologies, I misunderstood you.

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #81 on: February 22, 2021, 10:30:59 AM »
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  • St. Thomas: And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."

    From: http://www.baptismofdesire.com/

    Edit, Also St. Thomas: "Whether three kinds of Baptism are fittingly described--viz. Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit?
    Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence it is written (Apoc. 7:14): "These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb." In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this it is written (Is. 4:4): "If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." 

    Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): "The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: 'Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise' that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable."
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Offline Mirari Vos

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #82 on: February 22, 2021, 10:34:45 AM »
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  • Reading comprehension, people!!  Such a lack of reading comprehension...
    .
    St Ambrose is distinguishing between baptism being "solemnly celebrated" (i.e. performed publically, at Eastertime, or at least in a church, in front of his family/friends, the same ones who were grieving) and just a simple "initiation" of baptism (i.e. done in jail, in a hospital or on a deathbed).
    .
    If St Ambrose is supporting BOD, why would he make reference that not even martyrs are crowned/saved if they are not initiated/baptized?  It makes no sense and doesn't support your view.
    .
    St Ambrose is clearly giving a "pep talk" to those who are grieving, telling them that Valentinian was prepared and wanted baptism and even though he did not receive it SOLEMNLY (i.e. in a church), St Ambrose openly prays to the Holy Father that he did receive it before he died.  St Ambrose is not teaching a doctrine; he is telling people that God is not deceived and that if Valentinian truly desired baptism (which they all thought he did) then he would receive it non-solemnly (i.e. not in a church).  
    .
    At the end, St Ambrose reiterates doctrine that even a martyr is not saved without baptism, which clearly applies to Valentinian.
     He is clearly referring to the funeral solemnities not baptism.  :facepalm:


    Offline Mirari Vos

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #83 on: February 22, 2021, 10:36:51 AM »
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  • This is not proven at all.  
    .
    MirariV, can you give us your definition of BOD, with examples, and we'll see if you and Xavier agree?  
    Please read my previous posts, I explained it precisely.

    Offline Mirari Vos

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #84 on: February 22, 2021, 10:44:22 AM »
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  • .
    At the end, St Ambrose reiterates doctrine that even a martyr is not saved without baptism, which clearly applies to Valentinian.
    If you read it correctly, you would see that St. Ambrose was saying that even the catechumen martyrs do not have a solemn funeral.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #85 on: February 22, 2021, 10:57:25 AM »
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  • Fr. Cekada, God rest his soul..... is right here about Catholic Theologians.
    LOL, Fr. Cekada says BOD is defide because some modern theologians, but to him 1600 years of the infallible defined requirement that to be saved one must at least have belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation, that is no obstacle to the salvation of Muslim, Muslims, Hindus, all non-Catholics:


    Quote
    The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”
    Hilarious!
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #86 on: February 22, 2021, 11:03:35 AM »
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  • Quote
    He is clearly referring to the funeral solemnities not baptism.  

    Wrong, wrong, wrong.
    .
    1.  "Mysteries" refers to sacraments.  A funeral is not a sacrament.
    .
    2.  (the most obvious) is your quote is from the book/section titled "Funeral Oration of Valentinian".  St Ambrose was speaking to the grieving catholics at a funeral.  How is St Ambrose saying the funeral solemnities were not done, while speaking at the actual funeral solemnities?
    .
    3.  St Ambrose says, "I hear that you grieve because he did not receive the sacraments of baptism"
    He's not referring to a funeral.
    .
    4.  Your quote uses the incorrect singular 'baptism'.  The actual quote says 'sacraments' of baptism, plural.  Why is that?  Because catechumens of the time often received baptism/confirmation together and thus one was NOT considered a full catholic until they had received the (plural) sacraments of initiation.  
    .
    As Pope St Sylvester I said in 325 at the council of Nicea (canon 2):
    For a catechumen needs time and further probation after baptism.
    .
    The above is clear proof that in the early church, catechumens could be either baptized or unbaptized.  They were called the same thing.  They were only considered full members of the church until later 1) after baptism and 2) after confirmation (my guess).

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #87 on: February 22, 2021, 11:07:06 AM »
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  • LOL, you can't make stuff this up! I think that even they do not believe what they themselves say.

    False BODers (like XavierSem) - the St. Ambrose Valentinian eulogy is not ambiguous at all, it clearly teaches baptism of desire

    False BODers (like XavierSem) - St. Ambrose, On the Mysteries Chapter 4, does not deny BOD of the catechumen.


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    Quote
    20. Therefore read that the three witnesses in baptism, the water, the blood, and the Spirit, 1 John 5:7 are one, for if you take away one of these, the Sacrament of Baptism does not exist. For what is water without the cross of Christ? A common element, without any sacramental effect. Nor, again, is there the Sacrament of Regeneration without water: "For except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5 Now, even the catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, wherewith he too is signed; but unless he be baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive remission of sins nor gain the gift of spiritual grace. (St. Ambrose, On the Mysteries Chapter 4)
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #88 on: February 22, 2021, 11:17:07 AM »
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  • Ladislaus, you are truly being disingenuous. You know very well that St. Ambrose’s words DON’T ‘simply say that he received the grace he asked for’. Pray tell me what other grace could he be possibly referring to? To say that it “could be read as the opposite” is plainly bogus.

    You MUST tear down this and every other, piece of evidence in order to advance your own home cooked theory, and I’m the one who is of bad will? I’m the one who is not being sincere? Also, what I highlighted in red further confirms that he is referring to BOD. Here are his words again:

    No, on the contrary, YOU are reading BoD into this because you want to.  NOTHING in there suggests that this is what he meant, and there's significant evidence that it is NOT what he meant.  I did not "home cook" anything.  I simply looked at the evidence, both ways, and came to the same conclusion as what's below.  I could easily grant it were it shown that St. Ambrose believed in BoD, as that would make him the only Father to hold that opinion and not retract it.

    Here's a great treatment of this topic.

    https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

    Quote
    The Imperial Catechumen and the Eulogy

    Saint Ambrose was the bishop to whom Saint Augustine came for knowledge, under the inspiration of actual grace, while studying in Milan. The holy bishop also regenerated him in Christ. If Saint Ambrose held such a view on baptism of desire, surely Augustine would have cited him as an authority. What is offered by Saint Thomas (and Saint Bernard implicitly) as proof that the Bishop of Milan believed in baptism of desire is his oration in 393 at the funeral of the young Emperor Valentinian II, who was a catechumen, recently converted from Arian influences.

    The western Emperor, at the time of his death, was dealing with a rebellion within his ranks led by a pagan general, named Eugenius, and Arbogast, the Count of Vienne. Eugenius wanted to outlaw Christianity in the West and restore Roman paganism. When Valentinian, through the efforts of Theodosius, Catholic Emperor of the East, requested Bishop Ambrose to come to Vienne and baptize him, Eugenius revolted and had the Emperor αssαssιnαtҽd in his quarters. Ambrose was deeply pained and delivered a hopeful eulogy at the funeral in which he compared the deceased catechumen to a “martyr,” slain for the Faith, and “baptized in his own blood.” He said nothing about a baptism of desire, but merely asked the faithful not to grieve over the fact that Valentinian died before he could baptize him. Then, he asked the question: “Did he not obtain the grace which he desired? Did he not obtain what he asked for?” And then he concludes, “Certainly, because he asked for it, he obtained it.” This could easily be an expression of hope that, knowing the danger he was in, the Emperor asked someone to baptize him secretly. Or, it could also mean that the royal catechumen received the grace of salvation because he died a martyr for Christ. Ambrose, apparently, had no proof of the former supposition, for he never mentioned it publicly, but he did have hope that Valentinian’s holy resolve was the cause of his being killed by this murderous usurper who hated the Faith. And that is part of the qualification for martyrdom, along with true repentance for sin. This is what the saint prayed as he ended the eulogy:

    “Grant, therefore, to Thy servant the gift of Thy grace which he never rejected, who on the day before his death refused to restore the privileges of the temples although he was pressed by those whom he could well have feared. A crowd of pagans was present, the Senate entreated, but he was not afraid to displease men so long as he pleased Thee alone in Christ. He who had Thy Spirit, how has he not received Thy grace? Or, if the fact disturbs you that the mysteries have not been solemnly celebrated, then you should realize that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated. But if they are washed in their own blood, his piety also and his desire have washed him.” (De Consolatione in obitu Valentiniani, 51-54 = PL 16, 1374-75. Translated by Roy J. Deferrari, Ph.D., in Funeral Orations by St. Gregory nαzιanzen and St. Ambrose, pp. 287-288)

    The translation is not the problem here. The last two sentences, which seem contradictory, are exactly accurate from the Latin of Migne’s Patrologia Latina. In the next to the last sentence Saint Ambrose says “that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated.” Does he mean that they are saved, but not crowned? Then, in the last sentence, he says that “if they [martyrs] are washed in their own blood, his piety also and his desire have washed him.” I cannot understand what the holy doctor is affirming or denying in these sentences. Perhaps something is missing from the original transcription itself.

    Father Joseph Pfeiffer of the SSPX, in his article “The Three Baptisms” (The Angelus, March 1998), asserts that Saint Augustine heard the eulogy of Valentinian and, consequently, that is why the African doctor believed in baptism of desire.

    “One would think, however,” writes Father Pfeiffer, “from reading some of the recent works of the followers of Fr. Feeney that the doctrine of the baptism of desire was held as an obscure opinion amongst some misguided Catholic theologians and saints —saints who got it wrong in deference to Saint Thomas, who believed the doctrine only in deference to Saint Augustine, who held it because he once heard a sermon of Saint Ambrose, “On the Death of Valentinian” . . . Are we to assume that Mr. Hutchinson and like-minded followers of Fr. Feeney have a better understanding of Ambrose than Augustine, his own disciple, who was baptized by the same Ambrose?”

    Four quick points: 1) No one supportive of Saint Benedict Center would venture to assume that they would know the mind of Saint Ambrose better than Saint Augustine. That is absurd. 2) As I already noted, if the doctor from Milan intended to identify himself with the speculation concerning baptism of desire, Augustine would have cited his authority, especially if, as Father Pfeiffer assumes, he was “his disciple.” 3) There is no mention of Saint Ambrose’s eulogy for Valentinian in Saint Augustine’s writings, nor are there any known letters of correspondence between them. 4) Saint Augustine began his work against the Pelagians after the death of Saint Ambrose (+397). Again, it would seem likely that in changing his opinion on baptism of desire when confronting the anti-sacramentalism of the Pelagians, he would respectfully at least have made reference to Bishop Ambrose’s alleged contrary view.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #89 on: February 22, 2021, 11:20:58 AM »
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  • BTW, the prayer of St. Ambrose for Valentinian is evidence for the Ladislausian soteriology, that a martyr gets "washed" but not "crowned", i.e. that the punishment due to their sins gets washed away but they do not receive the Beatific Vision (the crown).  St. Gregory of nαzιanzen also makes the same distinction in his rejection of BoD.

    St. Ambrose:
    Quote
    Or, if the fact disturbs you that the mysteries have not been solemnly celebrated, then you should realize that not even martyrs are crowned if they are catechumens, for they are not crowned if they are not initiated. But if they are washed in their own blood, his piety also and his desire have washed him.

    NOT EVEN MARTYRS ARE CROWNED IF THEY ARE CATEcuмENS

    LastTrad's quote from St. Ambrose in De Mysteriis (mysterium is an early term for sacramentum) says that catechumens in general do not receive a remission of sins "washing" unless they're initiated.  Here he's making an exception for the martyrs, saying that they are wased, but not even martyrs are "crowned"

    Crowning refers to the beatific vision.