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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 39753 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2021, 05:05:27 PM »
St. Ambrose

On the Mysteries

Chapter 4:


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20. Therefore read that the three witnesses in baptism, the water, the blood, and the Spirit, 1 John 5:7 are one, for if you take away one of these, the Sacrament of Baptism does not exist. For what is water without the cross of Christ? A common element, without any sacramental effect. Nor, again, is there the Sacrament of Regeneration without water: "For except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5 Now, even the catechumen believes in the cross of the Lord Jesus, wherewith he too is signed; but unless he be baptized in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, he cannot receive remission of sins nor gain the gift of spiritual grace.


Letter 53, St. Ambrose to the Emperor Theodosius

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/ambrose_letters_06_letters51_60.htm

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2.  I am filled, I confess, with bitter grief, not only because the death of Valentinian has been premature, but also because, having been trained in the faith and moulded by your teaching, he had conceived such devotion towards our God, and was so tenderly attached to myself, as to love one whom he had before persecuted, and to esteem as his father the man whom he had before repulsed as his enemy.

(. . .)

4.  But hereafter we shall have time for sorrow; let us now care for his sepulture, which your Clemency has commanded to take place in this city. If he has died without Baptism, I now keep back what I know.


Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2021, 05:06:57 PM »
And you are absolutely correct that the Church Fathers who believed in BoB actually believed that it was an alternative mode of administering the SACRAMENT.  St. Cyprian actually called it a Sacrament, and at one point said that the angels pronounced the words of the form (while the martyr's blood was the matter).


Cyprian of Carthage (Church Father) – 200-258 AD  (the first highlight in red BOB, the second BOD)

Epistle LXXII: To Jubaianus, Concerning the Baptism of Heretics, §22-23: 

22. On which place some, as if by human reasoning they were able to make void the truth of the Gospel declaration, object to us the case of catechumens; asking if any one of these, before he is baptized in the Church, should be apprehended and slain on confession of the name [of Christ], whether he would lose the hope of salvation and the reward of confession, because he had not previously been born again of water?  Let men of this kind, who are aiders and favorers of heretics, know therefore, first, that those catechumens hold the sound faith and truth of the Church, and advance from the divine camp to do battle with the devil, with a full and sincere acknowledgment of God the Father, and of Christ, and of the Holy Ghost; then, that they certainly are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism who are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood, concerning which the Lord also said, that He had "another baptism to be baptized with" (Lk. 12:50).  

But the same Lord declares in the Gospel, that those who are baptized in their own blood, and sanctified by suffering, are perfected, and obtain the grace of the divine promise, when He speaks to the thief believing and confessing in His very passion, and promises that he should be with Himself in paradise.  Wherefore we who are set over the faith and truth ought not to deceive and mislead those who come to the faith and truth, and repent, and beg that their sins should be remitted to them; but to instruct them when corrected by us, and reformed for the kingdom of heaven by celestial discipline.  

 But some one says, "What, then, shall become of those who in past times, coming from heresy to the Church, were received without baptism?"  The Lord is able by His mercy to give indulgence, and not to separate from the gifts of His Church those who by simplicity were admitted into the Church, and in the Church have fallen asleep. [ Marari Vos: I don’t believe he was questioning the validity of the heretics baptism, but rather that the heretics who converted, weren’t baptized at all]


Offline trad123

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2021, 05:24:48 PM »
Epistle LXXII: To Jubaianus, Concerning the Baptism of Heretics, §22-23:


23. But some one says, "What, then, shall become of those who in past times, coming from heresy to the Church, were received without baptism?"


St. Cyprian was adamant that valid baptism was not possible outside the Church.

Further down,

# 24


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24. Nor let any one think that, because baptism is proposed to them, heretics will be kept back from coming to the Church, as if offended at the name of a second baptism; nay, but on this very account they are rather driven to the necessity of coming by the testimony of truth shown and proved to them. For if they shall see that it is determined and decreed by our judgment and sentence, that the baptism wherewith they are there baptized is considered just and legitimate, they will think that they are justly and legitimately in possession of the Church also, and the other gifts of the Church; nor will there be any reason for their coming to us, when, as they have baptism, they seem also to have the rest. But further, when they know that there is no baptism without, and that no remission of sins can be given outside the Church, they more eagerly and readily hasten to us, and implore the gifts and benefits of the Church our Mother, assured that they can in no wise attain to the true promise of divine grace unless they first come to the truth of the Church. Nor will heretics refuse to be baptized among us with the lawful and true baptism of the Church, when they shall have learned from us that they also were baptized by Paul, who already had been baptized with the baptism of John, as we read in the Acts of the Apostles.


https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html



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Father Francois Laisney, in a letter written to me in 1999 on this issue, labored much to convince me that Saint Cyprian favored baptism of desire. Regarding those converted heretics who were received back into the Church by the western bishops and the head of the Church himself without being rebaptized, he proved his point. But these converts were in a different category than catechumens — after all, they were accepted as members of the Church by the pope, and Cyprian himself, at least in council, was not denying the pope the right to admit these converts without rebaptizing them. Remember, in the previously-cited letter to Jubaianus he was arguing that this decision should be left to each individual bishop. His contention, therefore, if one looks at the logic of the actual argument and not his excessive vitriol, was not that the “deposit of faith” was being compromised by Pope Stephen, but that, for certainty sake, when the validity of heretical baptisms was questionable (as it was in his mind) the matter fell to one of discipline. To quote Saint Cyprian: “God is powerful in His mercy to give forgiveness also to those who were admitted into the Church in simplicity [of heart] and who died in the Church and not to separate them from the gifts of the Church” (Letter to Jubaianus, n. 23, Patrologia Latina 3, 1125). I put the emphasis on “died in the Church” to prove my point. If Saint Cyprian definitely believed that the Faith itself was being compromised, and that to accept the validity of heretical baptisms was itself “heretical,” then he would not have said that the deceased converts, who were not rebaptized, “died in the Church.” If Fathers Rulleau and Laisney wish to believe that Saint Cyprian was transmitting an apostolic tradition concerning baptism of desire, fine; but they certainly should not insist that fellow Catholics are obligated to believe that. They should also take note that Saint Augustine did not cite Cyprian as an authority when he first proposed baptism of desire as his own personal opinion.


Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2021, 08:21:13 PM »

St. Cyprian was adamant that valid baptism was not possible outside the Church.

Further down,

# 24



https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html
Thanks for the correction.

Offline trad123

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2021, 08:44:23 PM »
St. Bernard of Clairvaux (Doctor of the Church) –  1090-1153 AD  

Letter No.77, Letter to Hugh of St. Victor, On Baptism:  



Are you using this as the source of quotes?


Sources of Baptism of Blood & Baptism of Desire

https://archive.org/details/SourcesOfBaptismOfBloodBaptismOfDesire/page/n31/mode/2up?

Page 14




Amazon doesn't allow preview of the following book anymore, nor does Google:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0879071672/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0879071672&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwchanco-20 />

I posted an excerpt here, but I only wrote the page numbers, not the title of the docuмent:


Quote
https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/one-universal-church-of-the-faithful/msg687079/#msg687079

and

https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/one-universal-church-of-the-faithful/msg687087/#msg687087



If that's the same letter, the following was omitted in part:


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8. It would be hard, believe me, to tear me away from these two pillars--I mean Augustine and Ambrose. I own to going along with them in wisdom or in error, for I too believe that a person can be saved by faith alone, through the desire to receive the sacrament, but only if such a one is forestalled by death or prevented by some other insuperable force from implementing this devout desire. Perhaps this was why the Savior, when he said: Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, took care not to repeat 'whoever is not baptized', but only, whoever does not believe will be condemned, imitating strongly that faith is sometimes sufficient for salvation and that without it nothing suffices.