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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 39683 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2021, 06:26:25 PM »
Right, presumably if these post-Tridentine theoligians had believed BoD was taught or defined by Trent, they would ALL hold it to be de fide.  Consequently, there's disagreement here about whether Trent taught it.  Alternatively, some of them might hold that, "yeah, Trent mentioned it, but it didn't really define it or propose it for belief, mentioning the notion merely in passing."

So, despite the fact that some proponents of BoD claim that it's defined dogma, that is the minority opinion among theologians.

Father Cekada was trying to argue that Catholics MUST accept it under pain of grave sin, but he didn't notice that he was also at the same time demonstrating that it was a minority opinion that this was defined by the Church.
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Offline 2Vermont

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2021, 06:32:40 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on February 19, 2021, 06:26:25 PM
Right, presumably if these post-Tridentine theoligians had believed BoD was taught or defined by Trent, they would ALL hold it to be de fide.  Consequently, there's disagreement here about whether Trent taught it.  Alternatively, some of them might hold that, "yeah, Trent mentioned it, but it didn't really define it or propose it for belief, mentioning the notion merely in passing."

So, despite the fact that some proponents of BoD claim that it's defined dogma, that is the minority opinion among theologians.

Father Cekada was trying to argue that Catholics MUST accept it under pain of grave sin, but he didn't notice that he was also at the same time demonstrating that it was a minority opinion that this was defined by the Church.
To be fair then, wouldn't it also be wrong for the non-BODers to claim that BODers are heretics?  It seems to me what we have here is another unsettled issue in the Church.  Yet another reason why a true pope is needed.  Personally, I have never liked the wishy-washiness of BOD.  Practically speaking one can never know whether someone is saved or not (assuming no mortal sin at the time of death).  This is why, when I pray for my mom, I specifically ask God to have her ask for baptism.
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Offline ByzCat3000

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2021, 06:47:27 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on February 19, 2021, 06:26:25 PM
Right, presumably if these post-Tridentine theoligians had believed BoD was taught or defined by Trent, they would ALL hold it to be de fide.  Consequently, there's disagreement here about whether Trent taught it.  Alternatively, some of them might hold that, "yeah, Trent mentioned it, but it didn't really define it or propose it for belief, mentioning the notion merely in passing."

So, despite the fact that some proponents of BoD claim that it's defined dogma, that is the minority opinion among theologians.

Father Cekada was trying to argue that Catholics MUST accept it under pain of grave sin, but he didn't notice that he was also at the same time demonstrating that it was a minority opinion that this was defined by the Church.
I'm gonna guess that *some* of the theologians thought Trent clearly defined it though, which is probably why BOD has some de fide cannonists while BOB doesn't.
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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2021, 06:49:58 PM »
Quote from: ByzCat3000 on February 19, 2021, 06:47:27 PM
I'm gonna guess that *some* of the theologians thought Trent clearly defined it though, which is probably why BOD has some de fide cannonists while BOB doesn't.

That's precisely my guess also.  Some but not all theologians felt that Trent defined it.  I bet of these 25 theologians, only about 10 of them do more than mention it in passing, simply taking it for granted that BoD is there in Trent.

One of the arguments I've heard against my intepretation of Trent is that well, all the theologians hold that Trent taught it.  It would appear not, based on this.
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Offline Mirari Vos

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2021, 07:02:05 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on February 19, 2021, 06:26:25 PM
Right, presumably if these post-Tridentine theoligians had believed BoD was taught or defined by Trent, they would ALL hold it to be de fide.  Consequently, there's disagreement here about whether Trent taught it.  Alternatively, some of them might hold that, "yeah, Trent mentioned it, but it didn't really define it or propose it for belief, mentioning the notion merely in passing."

So, despite the fact that some proponents of BoD claim that it's defined dogma, that is the minority opinion among theologians.

Father Cekada was trying to argue that Catholics MUST accept it under pain of grave sin, but he didn't notice that he was also at the same time demonstrating that it was a minority opinion that this was defined by the Church.


On the other hand, not a single theologian, post Trent, holds Father Feeney’s position. Subsequently, Father Cekada was right, since, according to you, he said ‘you must accept it under gave sin’ and not heresy. Now, you must admit that the unanimous opinion, post Trent, is that the Church, at the very least, teaches it and since the Church teaches it, we are bound to believe it by our duty of obedience to the Church. Please show me if you think this is incorrect.
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