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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus  (Read 18694 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
« Reply #150 on: February 24, 2021, 03:46:23 PM »
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  • My question has nothing to do with baptism.  God told Jonah to tell the Ninevites to repent of their sins, not to be circuмcized and join Israel (which might come later).  Many pagans "become christian" (i.e. protestant) by repenting first, then later, they are baptized.  For non-catholics, it seems there's a way to be "justified" (maybe that's not the right word), apart from baptism.  Am I way off?

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #151 on: February 24, 2021, 05:17:06 PM »
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  • My question has nothing to do with baptism.  God told Jonah to tell the Ninevites to repent of their sins, not to be circuмcized and join Israel (which might come later).  Many pagans "become christian" (i.e. protestant) by repenting first, then later, they are baptized.  For non-catholics, it seems there's a way to be "justified" (maybe that's not the right word), apart from baptism.  Am I way off?
    Justification in Trent means you go straight to heaven if you die two seconds after being justified by the sacrament baptism. You receive the indelible mark and original sin and all your actual sins are blotted out.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #152 on: February 24, 2021, 05:35:59 PM »
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  • All that is needed is the will, and God provides the water even to a low life gangster Jew like Dutch Schultz (nothing was added by me to this article but this headline:



    There is the most interesting story of the deathbed conversion of the notorious Jєωιѕн mobster Dutch Schultz (you can read the whole article at http://www.killthedutchman.net/chapter_IX.htm Here's a snippet:

    The controversy surrounding Dutch Schultz hardly ended with his burial, of course. The funeral was barely over when the great debate began: what right did that man have to be laid to rest with the rites of the Catholic Church? John A. Toomey, S.J., took up the problem in the Catholic weekly, America, noting at the outset that there were thousands of people saying that "if a guy like that can go to heaven there won't be anybody in hell.", But the article went on:


    To these thousands, glaring contradictions appeared to be involved. Here was the Catholic Church, which always had impressed on her children a horror of even the slightest sin; which had ceaselessly warned them concerning the danger of presuming on the chances of a death-bed conversion, which had ever inculcated high ideals in asceticism, in selflessness, in heroic virtue; here was the Catholic Church beckoning into her fold a man who through his entire life had represented everything which the Church abhorred and condemned
    "Dutch Schultz" with the angels! "Dutch Schultz" whose beer-trucks once rumbled over the Bronx, whose gorillas blustered through the sidewalks! "Dutch Schultz" associating with the holy saints in Heaven!

    He to get the same reward as valiant souls who have clung to the Faith through a ceaseless hurricane of trial and temptation. It seemed more than unjust. It seemed ridiculous, preposterous, almost laughable.

    But it may not be so laughable after all. There were a number of things not taken into account by the ... judges. One little thing they missed completely was the fact that there is just One in the entire universe Who is capable of accurately judging the complex skein of a man's life. The influence of bad example, of environment in general: of heredity; the lack of religious training; the exact strength of temptations. ... That One is God Almighty. No one else can even begin to do the job.

    Another element that appeared to be fumbled was the interesting truth that the time of mercy for sinners does not expire until the moment of death; that there is no crime and no series of crime....which God will not forgive, this side of eternity, to the truly contrite of heart.

    The dynamic power of Divine Grace to move the most obdurate heart to repentance was also omitted from the consideration Indeed, the intimate and essential connection of grace with final salvation is widely overlooked. ...

    Other important bits of evidence were neglected as the clamorous verdict was reached: for example, the fact that nothing happens in this world without the permission of God. The reason "Schultz" was not killed instantly was because it was God's will that he be not killed instantly, and so he was conscious the morning after, and able to receive the grace of conversion, a grace that comes from God

    If "Schultz's" conversion was sincere it means that God gave him a last chance to save his soul, and that "Dutch" took advantage of the offer. It does not mean that God, or His Church, condoned the evil life of "Schultz" but that ... God judged he should be given another opportunity to save his soul....

    After all, Heaven belongs to God. If He wants "Dutch Schultz" to be there, it is difficult to see what we can do about it. Perhaps, instead of worrying about "Schultz" a somewhat more profitable occupation for us would be to do a little more worrying about our own salvation--to make sure we get there ourselves. We may not be given the opportunity for a death-bed repentance. Relatively few are given that chance.
    >

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #153 on: September 03, 2023, 09:47:40 PM »
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  • Bump. Will read another day when I have time.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #154 on: September 04, 2023, 08:19:06 AM »
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  • Right, presumably if these post-Tridentine theoligians had believed BoD was taught or defined by Trent, they would ALL hold it to be de fide.  Consequently, there's disagreement here about whether Trent taught it.  Alternatively, some of them might hold that, "yeah, Trent mentioned it, but it didn't really define it or propose it for belief, mentioning the notion merely in passing."

    So, despite the fact that some proponents of BoD claim that it's defined dogma, that is the minority opinion among theologians.

    Father Cekada was trying to argue that Catholics MUST accept it under pain of grave sin, but he didn't notice that he was also at the same time demonstrating that it was a minority opinion that this was defined by the Church.

    A doctrine doesn’t have to be designated as de fide in order for it to be sinful for denying it.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #155 on: September 04, 2023, 08:40:33 AM »
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  • A doctrine doesn’t have to be designated as de fide in order for it to be sinful for denying it.
    There are enough infallible statements that there is no possibility for BoD being a real doctrine.

    Pope St. Siricius, Decree to Himerius, A.D. 385:
    “Therefore just as we say that the holy paschal observance is in no way to be diminished, we also say that to infants who will not yet be able to speak on account of their age or to those who in any necessity will need the holy stream of baptism, we wish succor to be brought with all celerity, lest it should tend to the perdition of our souls if the saving font be denied to those desiring it and every single one of them exiting this world lose both the Kingdom and life.”


    Pope Benedict XIV, Apostolica (# 6), June 26, 1749: “The Church’s judgment is preferable to that of a Doctor renowned for his holiness and teaching.”

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #156 on: September 04, 2023, 08:50:21 AM »
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  • There are enough infallible statements that there is no possibility for BoD being a real doctrine.

    Pope St. Siricius, Decree to Himerius, A.D. 385:
    “Therefore just as we say that the holy paschal observance is in no way to be diminished, we also say that to infants who will not yet be able to speak on account of their age or to those who in any necessity will need the holy stream of baptism, we wish succor to be brought with all celerity, lest it should tend to the perdition of our souls if the saving font be denied to those desiring it and every single one of them exiting this world lose both the Kingdom and life.”


    Pope Benedict XIV, Apostolica (# 6), June 26, 1749: “The Church’s judgment is preferable to that of a Doctor renowned for his holiness and teaching.”


    No problem here, BOD pertains to people who have reached the age of reason. Unbaptized infants can’t be saved without the sacrament of baptism.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #157 on: September 04, 2023, 09:38:51 AM »
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  • No problem here, BOD pertains to people who have reached the age of reason. Unbaptized infants can’t be saved without the sacrament of baptism.
    or to those who in any necessity will need the holy stream of baptism, we wish succor to be brought with all celerity, lest it should tend to the perdition of our souls if the saving font be denied to those desiring it and every single one of them exiting this world lose both the Kingdom and life.”


    You seem to have skipped the rest. Can infants desire baptism? Clearly not, so this is about people above the age of reason.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #158 on: September 04, 2023, 10:24:56 AM »
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  • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine
    No problem here, BOD pertains to people who have reached the age of reason. Unbaptized infants can’t be saved without the sacrament of baptism.

    Please read it again.  It's not just about infants.  He's talking about each an everyone who desires Baptism forfeiting the Kingdom.  Infants do not desire Baptism.  Pope says either infants "OR" those desiring it.

    And the way you express this speaks to the grave error floating around.  When you say unbaptized infants can't be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism, the implied corollary is that adults can be saved "without the Sacrament of Baptism".  This is in fact a heretical proposition.  NO ONE CAN BE SAVED "WITHOUT" THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM.  In all cases, the Sacrament of Baptism is the instrumental cause of justification.  At best you can say the Sacrament can be received in voto, but not that anyone is saved WITHOUT the Sacrament.

    In fact, this is probably the top argument against the BoD interpretation of Trent.  Same thing applies.  If you claim that this is an either ... or proposition, that justification cannot happen without the Sacrament or else the Votum for it, there's an implied heretical corollary that one CAN be saved "WITHOUT" the Sacrament.

    I could go into other problems with the BoD interpretation of Trent, but I'll leave it here because this point dovetails with the implied heresy in your statement.

    So the teaching in Trent can in theory have one of two senses:

    1) I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil.  This means I can write a letter with one OR the other, and it also means that I CAN write a letter without a pen (so long as I have a pencil) or vice versa.

    2) Wedding cannot take place without the bride or the groom.  In this sense, both are required.  If one OR the other is missing, the wedding cannot take place.

    In sense #1, there's the implied corollary that it CAN happen WITHOUT one or the other, and therefore that justification CAN happen WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism.  Problem there is that Trent explicitly condemned that proposition as heretical.

    Finally, right after the passage, Trent adds, [paraphrase] "Our Lord taught that one must be born again of water AND the Holy Spirit."

    Water corresponds to the laver, and the Holy Spirit to the votum, which as Catholic Encyclopedia even states, entails much more than a simple desire for Baptism, but rather all the dispositions required to be baptized unto justification.  And Trent had just spent several paragraphs explaining that it is the Holy Ghost who inspires and motives these dispositions.

    So the have Trent adducing this as proof text for the either ... or reading would be tantamount to saying ...

    "We cannot play baseball without a bat or a ball, since Bob says that we need a bat and a ball to play baseball." ... saying that this sentence mean that we can play baseball with EITHER a bat OR a ball.

    No matter which angle you take, the BoDer reading of Trent fails.

    Finally, the problem here is that nowhere does Trent positively teach BoD, even IF you accept the either ... or interpretation.  At best, Trent is saying that it's erroneous (heretical) to hold that the Sacrament is not necessary AT LEAST in desire.  This means that Trent would be leaving open the BoDer interpretation as non-heretical, but not positively teaching it as true.  When Trent intended to teach something in a positive way, there's a Canon at the end reinforcing the teaching.

    It would be similar to me, if I were unsure about BoD, saying, that Baptism is necessary at least in desire.  One poster here who's a BoDer, actually reads Trent this way, that it's just saying that you must hold that Baptism is necessary at least in desire, but is not necessarily teaching positively that desire suffices.

    Offline magdalena

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    Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus
    « Reply #159 on: September 04, 2023, 11:00:41 AM »
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  • Please read it again.  It's not just about infants.  He's talking about each an everyone who desires Baptism forfeiting the Kingdom.  Infants do not desire Baptism.  Pope says either infants "OR" those desiring it.

    And the way you express this speaks to the grave error floating around.  When you say unbaptized infants can't be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism, the implied corollary is that adults can be saved "without the Sacrament of Baptism".  This is in fact a heretical proposition.  NO ONE CAN BE SAVED "WITHOUT" THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM.  In all cases, the Sacrament of Baptism is the instrumental cause of justification.  At best you can say the Sacrament can be received in voto, but not that anyone is saved WITHOUT the Sacrament.

    In fact, this is probably the top argument against the BoD interpretation of Trent.  Same thing applies.  If you claim that this is an either ... or proposition, that justification cannot happen without the Sacrament or else the Votum for it, there's an implied heretical corollary that one CAN be saved "WITHOUT" the Sacrament.

    I could go into other problems with the BoD interpretation of Trent, but I'll leave it here because this point dovetails with the implied heresy in your statement.

    So the teaching in Trent can in theory have one of two senses:

    1) I cannot write a letter without a pen or a pencil.  This means I can write a letter with one OR the other, and it also means that I CAN write a letter without a pen (so long as I have a pencil) or vice versa.

    2) Wedding cannot take place without the bride or the groom.  In this sense, both are required.  If one OR the other is missing, the wedding cannot take place.

    In sense #1, there's the implied corollary that it CAN happen WITHOUT one or the other, and therefore that justification CAN happen WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism.  Problem there is that Trent explicitly condemned that proposition as heretical.

    Finally, right after the passage, Trent adds, [paraphrase] "Our Lord taught that one must be born again of water AND the Holy Spirit."

    Water corresponds to the laver, and the Holy Spirit to the votum, which as Catholic Encyclopedia even states, entails much more than a simple desire for Baptism, but rather all the dispositions required to be baptized unto justification.  And Trent had just spent several paragraphs explaining that it is the Holy Ghost who inspires and motives these dispositions.

    So the have Trent adducing this as proof text for the either ... or reading would be tantamount to saying ...

    "We cannot play baseball without a bat or a ball, since Bob says that we need a bat and a ball to play baseball." ... saying that this sentence mean that we can play baseball with EITHER a bat OR a ball.

    No matter which angle you take, the BoDer reading of Trent fails.

    Finally, the problem here is that nowhere does Trent positively teach BoD, even IF you accept the either ... or interpretation.  At best, Trent is saying that it's erroneous (heretical) to hold that the Sacrament is not necessary AT LEAST in desire.  This means that Trent would be leaving open the BoDer interpretation as non-heretical, but not positively teaching it as true.  When Trent intended to teach something in a positive way, there's a Canon at the end reinforcing the teaching.

    It would be similar to me, if I were unsure about BoD, saying, that Baptism is necessary at least in desire.  One poster here who's a BoDer, actually reads Trent this way, that it's just saying that you must hold that Baptism is necessary at least in desire, but is not necessarily teaching positively that desire suffices.

    Exactly.  This covers it.  Interesting, if nothing else.

    But one thing is necessary. Mary hath chosen the best part, which shall not be taken away from her.
    Luke 10:42