Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus (Read 18742 times)

Ladislaus · « **Reply #135 on:** February 24, 2021, 07:55:11 AM »

Quote from: XavierSem on February 24, 2021, 07:15:34 AM

LOL. Don't you people ever read your Catechisms? The uncreated Soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost, and His Gift of Sanctifying Grace. The created Soul of the Church refers to all those in the State of Grace. Soul of the Church is not just a theory but a doctrine.

There was also a Pope who said "Outside the Church there is neither salvation nor forgiveness of sin". All who receive forgiveness of sins, i.e. justification, as Fr. Feeney admits, must necessarily be WITHIN the Church. They may not belong to Her Body, but to Her Soul.

That body vs. soul distinction has been shown to be condemned, and even Msgr. Fenton spent a good deal of time shredding it, and he called out the expression in the Catechism as faulty. LOL

If a Pope taught (vs. just "said) to the Church that there's no forgiveness of sin, then I would retract my belief that pre-Baptismal justification is possible. But Popes "SAY" lots of things, including when Innocent III said that transubstantiation could occur if a priest merely thought the words of consecration.

http://www.strobertbellarmine.net/fenton/The%20Use%20of%20the%20terms%20Body%20and%20Soul%20with%20Reference%20to%20the%20Catholic%20Church.pdf

He points out that Pius XII clearly condemned this distinction, and that the expression had "unfortunately crept into the revised Baltimore catechism."

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #136 on:** February 24, 2021, 08:02:53 AM »

Catechisms aren't infallible. How many times must we say this?
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Secondly, do you know enough history to realize that Pope Pius IX was the freemasonic dream pope until he converted and became orthodox. He was eventually imprisoned in the Vatican and almost killed by freemasons, both from within and without the church. This happened in the late 1800s.
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Thirdly, if Pope St Pius X had not been miraculously elected pope, due to the veto of uber-liberal Rampolla by Franz Joseph, then the Modernistic chaos of V2 would've happened in the early 1900s. Freemasons admitted that St Pius X's orthodoxy "set us back 50 years" in their plan to change the Church. But...even though St Pius X was a saint, he many times lamented that he was "surrounded by wolves".
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Why do these facts matter? Because it shows that the infiltration in the Church started way, long before the 1900s and probably even before the 1800s.
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And what was the first dogma they started attacking? EENS. You can see the liberalism in the Baltimore Catechism and even in St Pius X's catechism. Liberalism was creeping in everywhere in the 1800s. cινιℓ ωαrs were going on in every country in the 1800s. Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ was strong in the 1800s and controlled much. (Now it controls almost everything, but that's another topic). The point is, the 1800s was not all roses and dandelions when it comes to orthodoxy. Especially related to EENS. And because the catechisms are not infallible, we must be wary.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #137 on:** February 24, 2021, 08:06:11 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 24, 2021, 08:02:53 AM

You can see the liberalism in the Baltimore Catechism and even in St Pius X's catechism. Liberalism was creeping in everywhere in the 1800s. cινιℓ ωαrs were going on in every country in the 1800s. Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ was strong in the 1800s and controlled much. (Now it controls almost everything, but that's another topic). The point is, the 1800s was not all roses and dandelions when it comes to orthodoxy. Especially related to EENS. And because the catechisms are not infallible, we must be wary.

Msgr. Fenton himself (see quote above in my edited post) denounces this false expression has having "unfortunately crept into the revised Baltimore catechism."

But Xavier continues to maintain that catechisms are EFFECTIVELY infallible. Well, he should then read and give his full assent of faith to the Novus Ordo Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #138 on:** February 24, 2021, 09:31:50 AM »

Everything with these false BODers like XavierSem is an an end run. They keep repeating the same separate errors (adaptions) over and over and no matter how many times they are confronted with a conflict and corrected, they just ignore it and continue with the same tactic. If their teaching were a car, it would be made up of parts from different years and different suppliers, parts that do not fit together and have to be somehow adapted in. Their teaching is like the Johnny Cash song “ One Piece at a Time”. This is what their teachings would look like (of course in the real world the engine would not even run, because it too is made of different parts that do not work together): if it was an automobile:

At every turn when they meet a dogma that obstructs them, they come up with an interpretation that is not what the dogma clearly teaches. They piece together parts from different sources to get around each obstacle individually, but the pieces do not fit together to make a whole.

Quote

XavierSem-isms

XavierSem says - Outside of the Church there is no salvation, but there are also the soul of the Church people who are not baptized, yes, that's what the soul of the Church is, a bunch of unbaptized nice people, but the Holy Ghost forgot to inspire the councils and popes to include that any dogmatic decrees of EENS, but I, the great XavierSem, discovered the omission on the internet.

XavierSem says- I don't agree with anyone who teaches salvation by implicit faith and I confess that those who die as infidels are lost, however, no one but God knows who the infidels are and who did not die with the Catholic Faith, not having received Baptism of Desire or Perfect Contrition in the last seconds when God miraculously appeared to them and scared them to convert or go to hell. Baptism of desire can save people in all religions who "only appear" to have died as non-Catholics.

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Here are excerpts from some dogmas on EENS and how they are responded to (in red) by those who teach that Jҽωs, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, any person in all false religions, can be saved by their belief in a god the rewards. Enjoy!

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jҽωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (pagans and Jҽωs can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, thus they are in the Church. They can’t be saved even if they shed their blood for Christ, but they can be saved by a belief in a god that rewards.)

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …(Persons in all false religions can be part of the faithful by their belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:

“… this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Persons in all false religions by their belief in a god that rewards are inside the Church, so they can have remission of sin. They do not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff because they do not even know that they have to be baptized Catholics, why further complicate things for tem with submission to the pope?)

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:

“… one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…” (one lord, one faith by their belief in a god that rewards, and one invisible baptism by, you guessed it, their belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:

“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” ( the Catholic faith is belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:

“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.” (Just pick a few from the above excuses, from here on it’s a cake walk, just create your own burger with the above ingredients. You’ll be an expert at it in no time.)

Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”

Council of Trent, Session VI (Jan. 13, 1547) Decree on Justification, Chapter IV.

A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God (John 3:5). (this means you do not need to be baptized or have a desire to be baptized. You can be baptized invisible by desire or no desire, you can call no desire “implicit” desire, you can also receive water baptism with no desire, no, wait a minute that does not go in both directions for the water baptism, it only works for desire or if you have no desire at all. Come to think of it, just forget about all of it, persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards.)

Chapter VII. What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.

This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified;(except all persons in false religions, they can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Eugene IV, The Council of Florence, “Exultate Deo,” Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, ‘unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,’ as the Truth says, ‘enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water.” (Just ignore that language, all persons in false religions can be justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Council of Trent. Seventh Session. March, 1547. Decree on the Sacraments. On Baptism
Canon 2. If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.( any persons in false religions can be invisible baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Canon 5. If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema (the pope is also speaking here of the invisible baptism of persons in false religions that are baptized and justified by their belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”( the laver of regeneration can be had invisible and the true faith is belief in a god that rewards)

Pope Pius XII, mєdιαtor Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and consequently are not members of Christ orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who have not received this consecration.” ( persons who believe in a god that rewards do not need the mark, but they are in the Church. Somehow)

(Oh, I forgot invincible ignorance, no one mentions it anymore, it is now out of fashion, so I did not include it above. If you are old fashioned, just throw in a few invincible ignorants up there with the rest of the ingredients)

UPDATED 2-24-2021 with XavierSem-isms

Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #139 on:** February 24, 2021, 10:27:05 AM »

Ladislaus, please cite the page number. I skimmed through what you posted but didn't find any reference to the Baltimore Catechism. On page 53, Msgr. Fenton cites St. Robert, "some are of the soul and not of the body, such as catechumens and excommunicated persons, if they possess faith and charity as they very well". Msgr. Fenton is saying that it was not St. Robert, but later theologians, who misapplied and misunderstood what St. Robert meant by being of the soul and of the body of the Church. And only this later misapplication was rejected, not what St. Robert said.

I agree Catechisms are not always infallible in every jot and tittle, and some subjects like "Soul of the Church" etc can be more carefully developed. But as I showed earlier with citations from Fr. Tanqueray, they are infallible when they explain something based on divine revelation. The Soul of the Church issue wasn't explained based on Scripture, but Baptism of Desire was said to be a Scriptural Teaching. So there can be different ways of explaining it, Msgr. Fenton himself prefers the "within the Church, but not an actual member" way of phrasing it but the meaning is the same.

Last Tradhican, nice strawman. I don't believe Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus, Buddhists etc can be saved as they are, but only upon becoming Catholics or Christians, believing explicitly in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity. But carry on with your strawmen. LOL.

Question to Lad and others who claimed justified unbaptized persons go to "limbo" for eternity: The Roman Catechism says, "On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Holy7Sacraments-Baptism.shtml

This was well before 1800s. The Catechism clearly says (1) the danger present for infants, i.e. of being eternally lost in limbo, is not present for adults, contrary to what was claimed. (2) second, it is not talking of a miraculous water baptism. It says they are not washed in the salutary waters. (3) Third, it clearly explains the determination and resolution to receive Baptism, joined to contrition or repentance over past sins, avails to grace and righteousness, i.e. justification (4) It implies they will be saved, for the danger is absent.

Those who agree with the Dimonds that pre-baptismal justification is impossible have to hold the absurdity that Pope St. Pius V misunderstood what the Saintly Pontiff and the Council Fathers of Trent had just declared in their own Council! The absurdity!

As a matter of fact, the Dimonds frankly acknowledge this Catechism's teaching contradicts their idea. Only some others try to "spin" it.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #140 on:** February 24, 2021, 11:46:18 AM »

Quote from: XavierSem on February 24, 2021, 10:27:05 AM

Last Tradhican, nice strawman. I don't believe Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus, Buddhists etc can be saved as they are, but only upon becoming Catholics or Christians, believing explicitly in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.

Translation to the truth:

Quote

I, XavierSem, don't believe Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus, Buddhists etc can be saved as they are, but only upon becoming Catholics or Christians, believing explicitly in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity, and I confess that those who die as infidels are lost. However, no one but God knows who the infidels are and who did not die with the Catholic Faith, not having received Baptism of Desire or Perfect Contrition in the last seconds when God miraculously appeared to them and scared them to convert or go to hell. Baptism of desire can save people in all religions who "only appear" to have died as non-Catholics.

Now there's perfect example of an end run around all the dogmas on EENS and baptism.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #141 on:** February 24, 2021, 11:51:28 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 24, 2021, 08:02:53 AM

Catechisms aren't infallible. ..... You can see the liberalism in the Baltimore Catechism and even in the fake translated versions of the St Pius X's catechism.

There, that's better

Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #142 on:** February 24, 2021, 12:05:20 PM »

Last Tradhican, why don't you address the Catechism of the Council of Trent, approved by Pope St. Pius V, that was quoted above? Your position requries you to believe the Pope contradicted the Council that he had just presided over! Oh, the many absurdities of Dimondism! Pope St. Pius V also pre-emptively condemned your neo-Jansenist opinions in the Jansenist Baius, as the CE mentions.

More on that later perhaps. Now, here is Bp. Hay. From: http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/feeneyism/three_baptisms.htm

Is baptism of desire contrary to Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus?

Bishop George Hay, Bishop of Edinburgh, Scotland (d. 1811), in his excellent Catechism, The Sincere Christian, devotes a good portion of Volume II of the work to the question of salvation out of the Church. He says that it is impossible to be saved outside the Church, because the Church is the rule or measure of faith, without which faith it is impossible to attain heaven. Natural good will is not enough to be saved. Anyone who dies with natural good will alone cannot be saved. However, if God gives the grace to embrace the true faith, and one accepts - that is baptism of desire - he is truly a member of the Church, and can therefore be saved inside the Church. In Volume I he explicitly affirms that baptism of desire saves souls who cannot receive baptism of water. Let us conclude this article with the teaching of this great bishop:

Quote

In like manner, suppose a person living in a false religion dies without giving any sign of embracing the true faith, or without being reconciled to the Church of Christ, we can never say of such an one with certainty that he is lost; all that we can say must be under the same condition as in the other case: if he has actually died as he lived, separated from the true Church of Christ and without the true faith of Christ, he cannot be saved. But if God, of His great mercy, has given him in his last moments light and grace to see and embrace the true faith, and he has corresponded with so great a favor as God requires, he will be saved....
Q. 28. But, in the case proposed, if a person in his last moments shall receive the light of faith from God, and embrace it with all his heart, would this suffice to make him a member of the true Church in the sight of God?
A. Most undoubtedly; the case is the same in this as in that of baptism. Though Jesus Christ expressly says, "Except a man be born of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:5), which establishes the absolute necessity of baptism for salvation; yet, suppose a heathen should be instructed in the faith of Christ, and embrace it with all his heart, but die suddenly without baptism ... in the above dispositions with sincere repentance and a desire for baptism, this person will undoubtedly receive all the fruits of baptism from God, and therefore is said to be baptized in desire. In like manner, suppose a person brought up in a false religion embraces the true faith, which God gives him in his last moments - as it is absolutely impossible for him in that state to join the external communion of the Church in the eyes of men, yet he certainly will be considered united to her in the sight of God, by means of the true faith which he embraces, and his desire of being united to the Church, were it in his power. (Sincere Christian, Vol. 2, pp.322-323.).

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #143 on:** February 24, 2021, 12:06:08 PM »

Quote from: XavierSem on February 24, 2021, 10:27:05 AM

I don't believe Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus, Buddhists etc can be saved as they are, but only upon becoming Catholics or Christians, believing explicitly in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity.

Translation to truth:

Quote

I, XavierSem, don't believe Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus, Buddhists etc can be saved as they are, but only upon becoming Catholics or Christians, believing explicitly in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity, and I confess that those who die as infidels are lost. However, no one but God knows who the infidels are and who did not die with the Catholic Faith, not having received Baptism of Desire or Perfect Contrition in the last seconds when God miraculously appeared to them and scared them to convert or go to hell. Baptism of desire can save people in all religions who "only appear" to have died as non-Catholics.

XavierSem says - Outside of the Church there is no salvation, but there are also the soul of the Church people who are not baptized, yes, that's what the soul of the Church is, a bunch of unbaptized nice people, but the Holy Ghost forgot to inspire the councils and popes to include that any dogmatic decrees of EENS, but I, the great XavierSem, discovered the omission on the internet.

Here was XavierSem teaching the above two translations, in the case here of a Jew (it could just as well have been a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist etc):

Quote

Q. Is it then right for us to say that one who was not received into the Church before his death, is damned?
A. No.

Q. Why not?
A. Because we cannot know for certain what takes place between God and the soul at the awful moment of death.

Q. What do you mean by this?
A. I mean that God, in His infinite mercy, may enlighten, at the hour of death, one who is not yet a Catholic, so that he may see the truth of the Catholic faith, be truly sorry for his sins, and sincerely desire to die a good Catholic.

Q. What do we say of those who receive such an extraordinary grace, and die in this manner?
A. We say of them that they die united, at least, to the soul of the Catholic Church, and are saved.

Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #144 on:** February 24, 2021, 12:14:01 PM »

LOL. You obviously don't know what St. Thomas means by "Interior Illumination" of conscience. Hint: it isn't the absurd caricature you made of it in your brief (and laughable) "translation" above. It is what I explained from Fr. Mueller and Bp. Hay in approved Catechisms.

The Council of Trent itself proves Baptism of Desire, in at least 3 ways, when read carefully. I'll try to explain that when I have time. For now, the Roman Catechism and the many sources pertaining to the OUM post-Council of Trent should be enough of an explanation.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #145 on:** February 24, 2021, 12:16:06 PM »

Quote from: XavierSem on February 24, 2021, 12:05:20 PM

Last Tradhican, why don't you address the Catechism of the Council of Trent, approved by Pope St. Pius V, that was quoted above?

What for? It matters little to discuss details with someone who believes that no matter what kind of life anyone lives, or what god they worship, or whether they are not baptized, they can be miraculously saved in the last seconds by Christ scaring them to convert, and then they go to Heaven. "All nice people can be saved that way".

Nishant Xavier · « **Reply #146 on:** February 24, 2021, 12:25:13 PM »

You obviously didn't read what I quoted: "In like manner, suppose a person living in a false religion dies without giving any sign of embracing the true faith, or without being reconciled to the Church of Christ, we can never say of such an one with certainty that he is lost; all that we can say must be under the same condition as in the other case: if he has actually died as he lived, separated from the true Church of Christ and without the true faith of Christ, he cannot be saved. But if God, of His great mercy, has given him in his last moments light and grace [as Pope Bl. Pius IX also taught] to see and embrace the true faith, AND he has corresponded with so great a favor as God requires, he will be saved...." This was Bp. Hay's Catechism. Fr. Mueller's, which you quoted me quoting above, teaches the same thing. How is it so many approved Catechisms teach the same thing if they are all wrong? It doesn't mean anyone is automatically saved. It just means that, by an extraordinary miracle, in response to the prayers of the Church, God may choose to save some.

The Church prays daily for souls near death to be saved, for the just to gain perseverance, for sinners to be converted. Her Priests and Her faithful offer up many prayers and sacrifices. Not all we desire to save will be saved, but some will be.

God will not completely reject the prayers of His Church and Her faithful to save souls, especially when they make sacrifices for it, as Our Lady of Fatima taught. It's not our duty to pronounce final judgment on anyone, but to pray for all.

God alone knows with certainty how He will apportion the graces of our prayers. Some will respond to Grace and convert. Some will not.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #147 on:** February 24, 2021, 12:46:21 PM »

Quote from: XavierSem on February 24, 2021, 12:25:13 PM

It just means that, by an extraordinary miracle, in response to the prayers of the Church, God may choose to save some.

XavierSem once again confirms his bottom line end run belief, that an extraordinary miracle can bypass all the dogmas and save a person.

- as he has admitted, a person that does not belong to the Body Church. BUT then he invents a "loophole", the soul of the Church, an invisible church of nice people, to which the person converted by the miracle belongs, and therefore the person goes straight to heaven without the baptismal character.

- even a person that showed no sign his whole life of wanting to be a Catholic or believe in Christ and the Trinity, indeed as a Jew, Muslim they despise the Church, Christ, and the Trinity.

- a person who dies by "accident", so God has to perform a miracle in the last fraction of a second of life.

It all matters not because they will be miraculously saved by "an extraordinary miracle".

Quote

I, XavierSem, don't believe Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus, Buddhists etc can be saved as they are, but only upon becoming Catholics or Christians, believing explicitly in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity, and I confess that those who die as infidels are lost. However, no one but God knows who the infidels are and who did not die with the Catholic Faith, not having received Baptism of Desire or Perfect Contrition in the last seconds when God miraculously appeared to them and scared them to convert or go to hell. Baptism of desire can save people in all religions who "only appear" to have died as non-Catholics.

XavierSem says - Outside of the Church there is no salvation, but there are also the soul of the Church people who are not baptized, yes, that's what the soul of the Church is, a bunch of unbaptized nice people, but the Holy Ghost forgot to inspire the councils and popes to include that any dogmatic decrees of EENS, but I, the great XavierSem, discovered the omission on the internet.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #148 on:** February 24, 2021, 01:40:17 PM »

Question for LastTrad and Ladislaus (or other orthodox persons): Is it possible that there are 2 kinds of justification?
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1) Catholic justification, which comes from the sacrament of baptism, which includes removal of original sin and all other sins, plus temporal punishment.
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2) non-catholic justification, wherein original sin remains but all actual sins were removed due to repentance. Example: A heathen starts going to a protestant church and repents of sins, while still not being baptized. Example 2: Jonah preached repentance to the pagan city of Ninevah. Example 3: The Old Testament just still had Original Sin on their souls, did they not?

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #149 on:** February 24, 2021, 03:21:32 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 24, 2021, 01:40:17 PM

Question for LastTrad and Ladislaus (or other orthodox persons): Is it possible that there are 2 kinds of justification?
.
1) Catholic justification, which comes from the sacrament of baptism, which includes removal of original sin and all other sins, plus temporal punishment.
.
2) non-catholic justification, wherein original sin remains but all actual sins were removed due to repentance. Example: A heathen starts going to a protestant church and repents of sins, while still not being baptized. Example 2: Jonah preached repentance to the pagan city of Ninevah. Example 3: The Old Testament just still had Original Sin on their souls, did they not?

Who is the author of life and death? To the believers in BOD & BOB of any kind, one comes to life by chance and dies by chance. To the believer in BOD & BOB, a person learns the faith and gets baptized by his own work. Therefore, to the believer in BOD & BOB, a person could go all the way to the baptismal font by his own volition, and if he was by chance killed before being baptized, he would be saved by his desire. Basically, the BODer gratuitously, without the sacrament of baptism, justifies a person of any false religion, removes all sin, that is original sin and actual sins, then kills him and asks what happens to him? Then they answer that they go to heaven by BOD.

I do not believe in BOD & BOB because I believe that God is the author of life and death, and no one by is born by coincidence at the time and the place where they are born (for instance, in pre-Columbian Americas) and no one can even begin to seek the true faith without God's Grace, let alone go all the way up to the baptismal font. And God can allow a person to live 100 years if that is what is required for the baptism.

Whether a person is justified one second before the water of baptism drops on his head or he is not justified till he receives the water and the few words are said (which all takes like 3 seconds time) matters naught, for God can provide his elect with the time (100 years) and the grace to convert and be baptized.

Author Topic: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus (Read 18742 times)

Ladislaus

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Pax Vobis

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Ladislaus

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Last Tradhican

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Nishant Xavier

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Last Tradhican

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Last Tradhican

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Nishant Xavier

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Last Tradhican

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Nishant Xavier

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Last Tradhican

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Nishant Xavier

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Last Tradhican

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Pax Vobis

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus

Last Tradhican

Re: Baptism of Desire not defined dogma, per theological consensus