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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching  (Read 57501 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2024, 08:54:46 AM »
Quote
1917 Code of Canon Law
On Ecclesiastical Burial - (Canon 1239. 2)
   "Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized."
This doesn't prove they made it to heaven through BOD.  

Let's remember what Christ told us in Scripture.  "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.  He who does not believe, shall be condemned."

So, this means there are 3 categories of people:
1)  Believes and is baptized (i.e. Catholic)
2)  Believes and is not baptized (i.e. catechumen)
3)  Does not believe (i.e. non-catholic)

Neither Christ, nor Scripture, nor the Church Fathers, nor any Church Council, nor any Pope has definitely told us where those people in group #2 go.  It is clear that they aren't damned.  It is also clear that they can't be saved.  So, where do they go?  Some say they go to Limbo.

This is why Fr Feeney said:  "I don't know, and neither do you."

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2024, 09:03:14 AM »
Too bad even tridentine catechism did not manage to follow its dogmatic council of the same name it wished to call itsefl, but apparently failed miserably.

How about this:

 1917 Code of Canon Law
On Ecclesiastical Burial - (Canon 1239. 2)
  "Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized."

Better, but still false.  Canon Law is not Magisterium but discipline.  This is taken out of context.  Feel free to post the entire Canon.

1) Only the baptized can receive Christian burial.
2) Catechumens ... are to be treated as baptized.

This legal language is the equivalent of saying ...

1) Only US citizens may hold jobs in the United States.
2) Holders of Green Cards are to be treated as US citizens.

This does not mean that Holders of Green Cards are US citizens broadly speaking and for all intents and purposes, just in this particular context, i.e. they're allowed to hold jobs in the US.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2024, 09:10:19 AM »
This doesn't prove they made it to heaven through BOD. 

Let's remember what Christ told us in Scripture.  "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.  He who does not believe, shall be condemned."

So, this means there are 3 categories of people:
1)  Believes and is baptized (i.e. Catholic)
2)  Believes and is not baptized (i.e. catechumen)
3)  Does not believe (i.e. non-catholic)

Neither Christ, nor Scripture, nor the Church Fathers, nor any Church Council, nor any Pope has definitely told us where those people in group #2 go.  It is clear that they aren't damned.  It is also clear that they can't be saved.  So, where do they go?  Some say they go to Limbo.

This is why Fr Feeney said:  "I don't know, and neither do you."

Correct.  As per my post above, the Church permits and has permitted Catholics to entertain hope for the salvation of Catechumens, but even that is merely only implied by the Canon.  As I wrote, the notion that Catechumens "are to be treated as baptized" simply means that they are permitted to receive Christian burial.

There has always been some ambiguity regarding the status of the unbaptized Catechumen.  In the early Church, they were allowed to call themselves "Christian", and could attend part of the Mass.  They were considered partly in and partly outside the Church.  St. Robert Bellarmine makes the analogy that they're "in the vestibule" of the Church.  One could then debate what the implications of this were.  Early in the Church, Christian burial was NOT permitted for Catechumens who died without Baptism.  This was changed in 1917.  Did Church doctrine change?  We know that it doesn't.  Church discipline merely changed, and Canon Law is discipline, not doctrine.

Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2024, 09:35:04 AM »
This doesn't prove they made it to heaven through BOD. 

A new category for Feenyites? This is not in Dimond's handbook so I'm not sure what to think. :confused:
BOB/BODs are in hell as well as anyone who promote this "heresy" (according to Dimonds) but now we have a special place for them apart from Heaven and Hell?  Where is st. Emerentiana? People pray to her but she is not in Heaven? Or is it another falsehood that crept up that she died as catechumen? Maybe we should remove her from calendar? Or as sspx simply have that prerogative to strip saints of their sainthood? The hoops you have to jump through, my oh my...

Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2024, 09:39:39 AM »
Shall we consult the Dimond's handbook - "For instance, in the case of St. Emerentiana – who was martyred while praying publicly at the tomb of St. Agnes during the persecution of Diocletian – one could point out that the account of her martyrdom provides a situation that, in itself, suggests she was already baptized; for she wouldn’t have endangered herself in that fashion during the persecution had she not been baptized.  Or even if she wasn’t baptized before she was attacked (which is highly unlikely), she certainly could have been baptized after the attack by her mother who accompanied her (according to accounts) to the tomb to pray." :fryingpan: A lot of speculation if you ask me. But if all else fails you can always quote them on- " Besides, the Roman Martyrology is not infallible and contains historical errors.":jester: