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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching  (Read 57544 times)

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Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2024, 10:22:35 AM »
When I initially made this post, I did not expect it to get this many replies.

Anyway, I will address some of the objections some have had against my use of the Roman Catechism.

Firstly, the Roman Catechism, while not infallible, was still authoritative and binding for all Catholics at the time it was promulgated. In Catholicism, dogma does not have to come from infallible sources in order for it to be binding.

Secondly, the Roman Catechism states that one is able to attain some sacramental grace by the desire of baptism.
"Besides a wish to be baptized, in order to obtain the grace of the Sacrament, faith is also necessary"

Thirdly, if it is true that a desire for baptism will "avail them to grace and righteousness" for physical impediments, why would this not apply also to that of death? Given that many here acknowledge the truth that one may obtain the grace of baptism in the mere desire of it in the event of physical hindrances, why not also include death as an "unforeseen accident"?

To provide another quote from the Roman Catechism:
"But though these things may be thus, nevertheless to this class [or kind] of men [persons], the Church has not been accustomed to give the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has arranged that it should be deferred to a fixed time.  Nor does this delay have connected with it the danger, as indeed threatens in the case of children, as stated above; for those who are endowed with the use of reason, the design and plan of receiving Baptism, and repentance of a badly led life, would be sufficient to grace and justification, if some unexpected event hinders so that they are unable to be washed by the saving water. On the contrary, this delay is seen to carry with it certain advantages"

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2024, 11:07:24 AM »
Firstly, the Roman Catechism, while not infallible, was still authoritative and binding for all Catholics at the time it was promulgated. In Catholicism, dogma does not have to come from infallible sources in order for it to be binding.

So you're claiming that every word of the 500-600 pages of the Roman Catechism is infallible and tantamount to a dogmatic definition?  That's ridiculous.  As various theologians have commented, the theological note of anything expounded in the Catechism depends upon the theological note of the original source in the Magisterium from whence it derives.  There's tons of material in the Catechism that falls short of "dogma".


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2024, 11:09:59 AM »
Secondly, the Roman Catechism states that one is able to attain some sacramental grace by the desire of baptism.
"Besides a wish to be baptized, in order to obtain the grace of the Sacrament, faith is also necessary"

What?  You have the logic completely reversed.  This quotations teaches that the Sacrament does not conver its grace (apart from the character) without the intention of being baptized and without Catholic faith.  Nowhere does it state that faith and the desire for Baptism suffice for receiving the grace of the Sacrament.  In other words, this teaches that faith and intention to be baptized are necessary causes for the grace of the Sacrament, not sufficient causes on their own.  Please review the grammar.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2024, 11:13:38 AM »
Thirdly, if it is true that a desire for baptism will "avail them to grace and righteousness" for physical impediments, why would this not apply also to that of death?

Whether it would or wouldn't, based on your option, is entirely irrelevant.  This says nothing more than what it says and doesn't need your eading something into it.  There's nothing more in this passage than that if someone has the proper dispositions, God will ensure that they end up receiving that which they desire and intend to receive.  There's a nearly identical passage in St. Fulgensius (that I've cited before ... do a search) where he states that the "confession" (of the faith) would "avail for salvation" for somone who's prevented from receiving the Sacrament ... then finishes the passage with "... since God will keep him alive until he receives it."  Whether the Catechism "means" to imply that someone who dies without the Sacrament can be saved is a matter of interpretation, something you're reading into it, but it only says that adults are not in the same need for immediate Baptism (weighed against the need for them to be properly prepared) since God will take care of them if they're properly disposed.  That's it, and nothing more than that.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2024, 11:15:31 AM »
You will continue on your error, ignoring the proofs against a BOD already provided.

THIS^^^ ... the reason I've stopped posting much.  People have already made up their minds, so it's pointless.  I'll occasionally post for the benefit of a third-party lurker, but no more for those who have no interest in actually considering the responses.