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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching  (Read 51709 times)

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Offline gemmarose

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Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2024, 02:04:42 PM »
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  •  .

    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #16 on: August 26, 2024, 02:10:47 PM »
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  • Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #17 on: August 26, 2024, 02:18:44 PM »
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  • I guess I just find it strange that this topic can push so many emotional buttons.
    I think maybe emotions come into play among a BOD proponents because like Scripture,, the Church teaches that so many die unbaptized and are lost forever, whereas a BOD gives it's proponents a hope that not so many are lost. As Fr. Wathen put it: "If this seems to you overly severe, I remind you, it truly *is* severe..."





    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #18 on: August 26, 2024, 03:42:08 PM »
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  • I think maybe emotions come into play among a BOD proponents because like Scripture,, the Church teaches that so many die unbaptized and are lost forever, whereas a BOD gives it's proponents a hope that not so many are lost. As Fr. Wathen put it: "If this seems to you overly severe, I remind you, it truly *is* severe..."
    Yes, I believe it all comes down to EMOTIONALISM! Who do these bod advocates think they are, telling Christ that he really didn't say what he meant in St. J0hn 3:5    

    https://https://x.com/1Friarminor/status/1355233388752367616x.com/1Friarminor/status/1355233388752367616

    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #19 on: August 26, 2024, 03:44:27 PM »
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  • Yes, I believe it all comes down to EMOTIONALISM! Who do these bod advocates think they are, telling Christ that he really didn't say what he meant in St. J0hn 3:5   

    https://https://x.com/1Friarminor/status/1355233388752367616x.com/1Friarminor/status/1355233388752367616
    More threads from Friarminor 


    https://x.com/1Friarminor/status/1281777220021710850


    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #20 on: August 26, 2024, 04:34:50 PM »
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  • Yes, you misinterpret Trent's catechism, there is simply no other way to come up with a BOD from the catechism. Did you read the snip I posted from that catechism? If not, please read it, then use that teaching to support a BOD.
    And please do the same with what I posted from St. Alphonsus.
    And Fr. Feeney was indeed a theologian, well respected and was a well known priest and theologian.
    That's my opinion and nothing more. First it says those who die unbaptized cannot receive ecclesiastical burial, then it makes an exception for unbaptized catechumens. Something seems to me to be amiss there. Whether I am wrong or not means nothing, because either way it's not teaching a BOD.
    My friend, God forbid I misinterpret something and lead others in error. If i "misinterpret" it as you say, it is only because I enjoy the company of saints, doctors, catechisms and canon law that "misinterpret" it with me on this matter. It seems to me you guys only listen to what anonymous new york brothers say no matter what, as well as one rouge priest in the 50s. But let's belittle st Alphonsus, right? 


    If you have to step on necks of so many giants, what say you? Well, that they are in error, or contradiction because this what they said here or there. This is nothing short of sola scriptura method applied on canons, dogmas etc. In other words- hey Mother Church did not need to bother with approved theologians nor their unanimous teaching (as Ludwig Ott would say it for instance on this matter), right?. What nonsense. 


    Now hear this Mr Stubborn from the very same catechism YOU DARE TO INTERPRET how YOU please.

    "Catechism of the Council of Trent, “Ordinarily They Are Not Baptized At Once,” pg. 124-125: “But though these things may be thus, nevertheless to this class [or kind] of men [persons], the Church has not been accustomed to give the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has arranged that it should be deferred to a fixed time.  Nor does this delay have connected with it the danger, as indeed threatens in the case of children, as stated above; for those who are endowed with the use of reason, the design and plan of receiving Baptism, and repentance of a badly led life, would be sufficient to grace and justification, if some unexpected event hinders so that they are unable to be washed by the saving water. On the contrary, this delay is seen to carry with it certain advantages."

    Now go on, I dare you, consult the same catechism that mother Church gave us. Or will you only be able to get your answer if brothers Dimond give it to you? Maybe this part of catechism is in error to, aye?

    Source:

    https://dn790003.ca.archive.org/0/items/thecatechismofth00donouoft/thecatechismofth00donouoft.pdf






    Offline Hewkonian

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #21 on: August 26, 2024, 04:36:16 PM »
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  • Sticking with Pope Clement XIII on this one.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #22 on: August 26, 2024, 04:43:43 PM »
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  • I guess I just find it strange that this topic can push so many emotional buttons.
    Because people want to make exceptions for the rule. Same thing with heresies like salvation outsi the church by the church, or salvation in the state of invincible ignorance, or claiming someone can have the soul of the church without being in the Body of Christ.


    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #23 on: August 26, 2024, 04:45:45 PM »
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  • Sticking with Pope Clement XIII on this one.
    It's wrong. Catechism certainly has the mistake regarding conception and the soul.

    Offline Hewkonian

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #24 on: August 26, 2024, 05:05:18 PM »
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  • It's wrong. Catechism certainly has the mistake regarding conception and the soul.
    Catechism of St. Pius X. In Part IV on the Sacraments, Chapter II on Baptism (§ 4), states:

    Q: Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way?

    A: The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire


    I will stick with St.Pius X on this one as well.

    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #25 on: August 26, 2024, 05:10:40 PM »
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  • It's wrong. Catechism certainly has the mistake regarding conception and the soul.
    Is the canon law of 1917 in grievous error as well? 

    Canon 737 states, "Baptism, the gateway and foundation of the Sacraments, actually or at least in desire, is necessary for all for salvation..."


    Canon 1239, section 2 :

    "Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as Baptized."



    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #26 on: August 26, 2024, 05:14:18 PM »
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  • "Pope Gregory XVI: "...The discipline sanctioned by the Church must never be rejected or be branded as contrary to certain principles of natural law. It must never be called crippled, or imperfect or subject to civil authority. In this discipline the administration of sacred rites, standards of morality, and the reckoning of the rights of the Church and her ministers are embraced." (Mirari Vos, #9 ).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #27 on: August 26, 2024, 05:27:37 PM »
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  • Yet another SV baboon making a fool of himself by grossly misinterpreting the evidence.  Neither the Catechism of Trent nor the Code of Canon Law "teach" BoD, and the error regarding the Code is so amateurish as to be laughable.

    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #28 on: August 26, 2024, 05:44:53 PM »
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  • Yet another SV baboon making a fool of himself by grossly misinterpreting the evidence.  Neither the Catechism of Trent nor the Code of Canon Law "teach" BoD, and the error regarding the Code is so amateurish as to be laughable.
    Gee, Ladislaus, you really nailed it there. I am convinced. C'mon pal, I know you are well respected elder of this forum. Your insights are great on some things, very weird on others- like cardinal Siri being this so called hidden "resistance" pope despite going with the flow of revolution later on (photo attached). And then here, you come back from sabbatical only to name me baboon. You can do better than that I'm sure. Let's start by "correcting" the 1917 code of canon law for start...

    P.S here is a photo of your pope following the revolution. But let's stay on the topic..

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #29 on: August 26, 2024, 08:03:22 PM »
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  • Gee, Ladislaus, you really nailed it there. I am convinced. C'mon pal, I know you are well respected elder of this forum. Your insights are great on some things, very weird on others- like cardinal Siri being this so called hidden "resistance" pope despite going with the flow of revolution later on (photo attached). And then here, you come back from sabbatical only to name me baboon. You can do better than that I'm sure. Let's start by "correcting" the 1917 code of canon law for start...

    P.S here is a photo of your pope following the revolution. But let's stay on the topic..

    So you reveal your duplicity right out of the gate with this post, since you're obviously a former member under another name, given how much you know about what I post here.  You are not some long-standing anonymous lerker who suddenly decided to create an account.