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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching  (Read 51763 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2024, 07:36:58 AM »
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  • No, of course we do not. The great saint does not need to provide footnotes at the end of everything he says just to appease feenyites. He knows that children will listen to Mother Church. Rebellious feenyites on other had will put a death grip on one quote and drag anyone in the mud, even if that means st Alphonsus just so they defend the interpretations of rouge priest from 50s and 2 brothers from NY.
    You are the one being rebellious, also insincere.

    In my last post to you, I have already indisputably proven that St. Alphonsus teaches that the famous so-called "dogma on a BOD" i.e. "desire thereof," applies strictly to The Holy Eucharist - this is what both Trent and St. Alphonsus teaches. That BODers misapply it to the sacrament of baptism is error, after all this time it might possibly be heresy. Until you admit as much, I have no reason to continue this discussion with you.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #46 on: August 27, 2024, 07:41:05 AM »
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  • Again, St. Alphonsus commentary on Trent's Canon 4 explains Trent and John 6:54:

    TRENT:
    ST. ALPHONSUS:St. Alphonsus teaches that the famous so-called "dogma on a BOD" i.e. "desire thereof," applies strictly to The Holy Eucharist - this is what both Trent and St. Alphonsus teaches. That BODers misapply it to the sacrament of baptism is error, after all this time it might possibly be heresy.

    You my friend need to consult the feenyite headquarters in NY. No serious feenyite is questioning that St Alphonsus was speaking about this in context of baptism.


    St. Alphonsus Liguori  "Moral Theology - (Bk. 6):

      "But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called 'of wind' ['flaminis'] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind ['flamen']. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon 'Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato' and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'"

    What they do then like Stubborn is drag him through the mud, say that he is in error. Even heard one person call him heretic. Abisymal and shocking!


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #47 on: August 27, 2024, 07:57:22 AM »
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  • You my friend need to consult the feenyite headquarters in NY. No serious feenyite is questioning that St Alphonsus was speaking about this in context of baptism.

    Yet another example of your ignorance, disqualifying you from this discussion.  Dimond Brothers are not Feeneyites.

    Please explain the precise nature of Father Feeney's "heresy", since Father Feeney did actually believe in what you claim Trent taught, justification by desire.  He merely applied a distinction between justification and salvation, a distinction that was applied by various approved theologians after Trent, including Melchior Cano and others (with Cano opining that infidels could be justified but not saved).

    You're conflating the position of Father Feeney with that of the Dimond Brothers ... showing that you have no earthly idea of what you're talking about, as is the case for nearly all the bad-willed EENS-haters such as yourself.

    Irony for the moronic SVs who reject the V2 ecclesiology is that they condemn themselves from their own mouth/keyboard, in that they themselves actually adhere to the V2 ecclesiology but are simply too stupid to realize it.

    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #48 on: August 27, 2024, 08:14:41 AM »
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  • I guess I can only be thankful you won’t be my judge one day Ladislaus. As far as you disqualifying me from the discussion. Thankfully you are not the owner of forum either, so don’t waste your breath.

    I need not explain the varying degrees of attachments to this disorderly view as they all have one thing in common. Stepping on the neck of saints, doctors, catechism, canon law and universal and ordinary magisterium of the Church.

    Just as there is many sede camps, I understand that fr Feeney and Dimonds differ, but for the sake of easier communication they all fall under the same umbrella. Gosh, you feenyites are sometimes proper semantic nαSιS.

    Baboon, moron, keep them going brother. I’m not sure you are giving yourself heavenly points their bud. You used to be less bitter, cheer up man. Give me some counter-arguments instead.

    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #49 on: August 27, 2024, 08:19:19 AM »
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  • Look at this hogwash my feenyite foes. From Dimonds -"THESE FACTS NOT ONLY PROVE THAT ST. ALPHONSUS’ PARTICULAR EXPLANATION OF BOD IS COMPLETELY UNTENABLE – AND THOSE WHO ADVANCE IT OBSTINATELY IN THE FACE OF SUCH FACTS SIN GRAVELY AND TEACH HERESY – BUT IT DEMONSTRATES THAT ‘BOD’ IS A FALSE THEORY; FOR, ACCORDING TO ITS MOST CELEBRATED DEFINITION, ‘BOD’ DOESN’T EVEN GIVE YOU WHAT THE COUNCIL OF TRENT DECLARES YOU MUST HAVE TO BE JUSTIFIED (IN THE STATE OF GRACE)."

    I like how Dimond brothers give st Alphonsus a pass, he is in mere error but ones who promote what he taught are heretics and mortal sinners. But this is the common Achilles heel in feenyite camp- INCONSISTENCY. 


    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #50 on: August 27, 2024, 08:30:22 AM »
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  • I've advised you- I interpret it how the very same tridentine catechism interprets it. How st Alphonus interprets it, how unanimous theologians interpret it (prior to Vatican II), how instructions of moral theology interpret it, how canon law of 1917 iterprets it which you dare to call erroneous. Is that not sufficient? Or do you deny they say bob/bod is part of Church's teachings? You are posing a false dilemma here as if I have to interpret something based on one sentence alone. I am not a protestant my friend. Yes, you feenyites would be all correct if that was the case. Unfortunately for you, that's not how Church teaches. If it allows for BOB/BOD elsewhere it is not a contradiction nor did Church have nothing better to do then spill ink for the sake of filling in the gaps. There is a reason why this is almost always mentioned. How that goes over your head, I don't know.
     
    I've asked you how you interpret John 5,54- " Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you."

    See if we were to use feenyite tunnel vision logic here, then all who did not receive eucharist would perish, right?
    You're on the road to a bad reputation just like me, lol. For some reason people on here don't like me because I make comments about the fillmore boys. Anyways, the fillmore boys, Fr. Feeney don't own the baptism issue. There was St. Leo, St. Gregory nαzιanzen that held water baptism & of course Christ -John 3:5- which doesn't have the word desire. I don't agree with Fr. Feeney on justification anyways, so I'm not a "feeneyite" You mention about the "feeneyite" doesn't receive the eucharist, I do, I attend the SSPX.   Check out this thread on X   https://x.com/1_lauren28/status/1527768820449955843

    Offline gemmarose

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #51 on: August 27, 2024, 08:35:41 AM »
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  • You're on the road to a bad reputation just like me, lol. For some reason people on here don't like me because I make comments about the fillmore boys. Anyways, the fillmore boys, Fr. Feeney don't own the baptism issue. There was St. Leo, St. Gregory nαzιanzen that held water baptism & of course Christ -John 3:5- which doesn't have the word desire. I don't agree with Fr. Feeney on justification anyways, so I'm not a "feeneyite" You mention about the "feeneyite" doesn't receive the eucharist, I do, I attend the SSPX.  Check out this thread on X  https://x.com/1_lauren28/status/1527768820449955843
    Ot maybe they just don't like me, that's fine. But I know that fillmore boys followers have a lot of accounts.   

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #52 on: August 27, 2024, 09:15:42 AM »
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  • Look at this hogwash my feenyite foes. From Dimonds -"THESE FACTS NOT ONLY PROVE THAT ST. ALPHONSUS’ PARTICULAR EXPLANATION OF BOD IS COMPLETELY UNTENABLE – AND THOSE WHO ADVANCE IT OBSTINATELY IN THE FACE OF SUCH FACTS SIN GRAVELY AND TEACH HERESY – BUT IT DEMONSTRATES THAT ‘BOD’ IS A FALSE THEORY; FOR, ACCORDING TO ITS MOST CELEBRATED DEFINITION, ‘BOD’ DOESN’T EVEN GIVE YOU WHAT THE COUNCIL OF TRENT DECLARES YOU MUST HAVE TO BE JUSTIFIED (IN THE STATE OF GRACE)."

    I like how Dimond brothers give st Alphonsus a pass, he is in mere error but ones who promote what he taught are heretics and mortal sinners. But this is the common Achilles heel in feenyite camp- INCONSISTENCY.
    The Augustinian position on Baptism of Desire is legitimate, and is held by St. Benedict's Centre. It was confirmed by Pope Benedict XVI as safe to hold. Here is Br. Andre Marie explain: "Saint Augustine taught, as is clear from this article’s epigram, that the providence of God would see to it that a justified catechumen would be baptized before death. God alone, in any event, knows which of those, with a votum for baptism and perfect contrition, He has justified. The Church can only assume, as the arm of Christ, the Principal Agent in baptism, that all are in need of receiving the sacramentin order to not only have all sin forgiven and abolished, but to be a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. Anticipating the rejoinder that no one is lost who dies in the state of grace, let me just affirm that I agree. Not only that I agree, but that I submit to this truth as I would a dogma of Faith. The Church, however, allows the faithful the freedom to believe that the providence of God will see to it that every person dying in the state of grace will also be baptized. This preserves the literal sense of Christ’s teaching in John 3:5: “Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he can/not enter into the kingdom of God” and His apostolic mandate to preach and baptize all nations in Mark 16: 15-16." https://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

    Unlike Dimondite schismatics who need to attack ample Church teaching in order to sustain their erroneous and false position, the Indult Traditionalist Roman Catholics at SBC need do no such thing. Or, one can just agree with St. Thomas. Pope Leo XIII on St. Thomas: "to these judgments of great Pontiffs on Thomas Aquinas comes the crowning testimony of Innocent VI: "His teaching above that of others, the canonical writings alone excepted, enjoys such a precision of language, an order of matters, a truth of conclusions, that those who hold to it are never found swerving from the path of truth, and he who dare assail it will always be suspected of error."(36)" https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/docuмents/hf_l-xiii_enc_04081879_aeterni-patris.html
    You two seem like you are just here to troll. The Church has never taught BoD. She has made many infallible statements where baptism is required for salvation and so strongly to the point that there is no room for BoD to be possible.

    The fact that you bring up the Dimonds here and call them schismatics (they aren't) shows your lack of integrity. Also St Augustine didn't hold BoD, he correctly taught (against Julian) that God would never allow any of the elect to die before receiving the sacrament of the mediator. BoD is not a sacrament, it lacks the matter and form. There is no way for you to say that xyz person received baptism of desire, it's simply nonsense. I can tell if someone was baptised because they actually had water flowing on them while the correct form was invoked. You cannot do this with BoD, it's nothing more than sentimental cope.

    You two have a lot of conflation in your posts, drawing lines to things that aren't even relevant in order justify BoD which really ends as and attack on the necessity of baptism.


    Offline anonymouscatholicus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #53 on: August 27, 2024, 09:42:29 AM »
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  • You two seem like you are just here to troll. The Church has never taught BoD. She has made many infallible statements where baptism is required for salvation and so strongly to the point that there is no room for BoD to be possible.
    Sure, maybe it was the westboro baptist church teaching it through UOM, catechisms, consensus of theologians, doctors of the church and code of canon law of 1917.::)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #54 on: August 27, 2024, 09:56:43 AM »
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  • Sure, maybe it was the westboro baptist church teaching it through UOM, catechisms, consensus of theologians, doctors of the church and code of canon law of 1917.::)
    You will continue on your error, ignoring the proofs against a BOD already provided.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline EternalKeys

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #55 on: September 15, 2024, 10:22:35 AM »
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  • When I initially made this post, I did not expect it to get this many replies.

    Anyway, I will address some of the objections some have had against my use of the Roman Catechism.

    Firstly, the Roman Catechism, while not infallible, was still authoritative and binding for all Catholics at the time it was promulgated. In Catholicism, dogma does not have to come from infallible sources in order for it to be binding.

    Secondly, the Roman Catechism states that one is able to attain some sacramental grace by the desire of baptism.
    "Besides a wish to be baptized, in order to obtain the grace of the Sacrament, faith is also necessary"

    Thirdly, if it is true that a desire for baptism will "avail them to grace and righteousness" for physical impediments, why would this not apply also to that of death? Given that many here acknowledge the truth that one may obtain the grace of baptism in the mere desire of it in the event of physical hindrances, why not also include death as an "unforeseen accident"?

    To provide another quote from the Roman Catechism:
    "But though these things may be thus, nevertheless to this class [or kind] of men [persons], the Church has not been accustomed to give the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has arranged that it should be deferred to a fixed time.  Nor does this delay have connected with it the danger, as indeed threatens in the case of children, as stated above; for those who are endowed with the use of reason, the design and plan of receiving Baptism, and repentance of a badly led life, would be sufficient to grace and justification, if some unexpected event hinders so that they are unable to be washed by the saving water. On the contrary, this delay is seen to carry with it certain advantages"


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #56 on: September 15, 2024, 11:07:24 AM »
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  • Firstly, the Roman Catechism, while not infallible, was still authoritative and binding for all Catholics at the time it was promulgated. In Catholicism, dogma does not have to come from infallible sources in order for it to be binding.

    So you're claiming that every word of the 500-600 pages of the Roman Catechism is infallible and tantamount to a dogmatic definition?  That's ridiculous.  As various theologians have commented, the theological note of anything expounded in the Catechism depends upon the theological note of the original source in the Magisterium from whence it derives.  There's tons of material in the Catechism that falls short of "dogma".

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #57 on: September 15, 2024, 11:09:59 AM »
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  • Secondly, the Roman Catechism states that one is able to attain some sacramental grace by the desire of baptism.
    "Besides a wish to be baptized, in order to obtain the grace of the Sacrament, faith is also necessary"

    What?  You have the logic completely reversed.  This quotations teaches that the Sacrament does not conver its grace (apart from the character) without the intention of being baptized and without Catholic faith.  Nowhere does it state that faith and the desire for Baptism suffice for receiving the grace of the Sacrament.  In other words, this teaches that faith and intention to be baptized are necessary causes for the grace of the Sacrament, not sufficient causes on their own.  Please review the grammar.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #58 on: September 15, 2024, 11:13:38 AM »
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  • Thirdly, if it is true that a desire for baptism will "avail them to grace and righteousness" for physical impediments, why would this not apply also to that of death?

    Whether it would or wouldn't, based on your option, is entirely irrelevant.  This says nothing more than what it says and doesn't need your eading something into it.  There's nothing more in this passage than that if someone has the proper dispositions, God will ensure that they end up receiving that which they desire and intend to receive.  There's a nearly identical passage in St. Fulgensius (that I've cited before ... do a search) where he states that the "confession" (of the faith) would "avail for salvation" for somone who's prevented from receiving the Sacrament ... then finishes the passage with "... since God will keep him alive until he receives it."  Whether the Catechism "means" to imply that someone who dies without the Sacrament can be saved is a matter of interpretation, something you're reading into it, but it only says that adults are not in the same need for immediate Baptism (weighed against the need for them to be properly prepared) since God will take care of them if they're properly disposed.  That's it, and nothing more than that.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire is Church Teaching
    « Reply #59 on: September 15, 2024, 11:15:31 AM »
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  • You will continue on your error, ignoring the proofs against a BOD already provided.

    THIS^^^ ... the reason I've stopped posting much.  People have already made up their minds, so it's pointless.  I'll occasionally post for the benefit of a third-party lurker, but no more for those who have no interest in actually considering the responses.