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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire and of Blood  (Read 2075 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Baptism of Desire and of Blood
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2016, 12:32:01 PM »
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  • Plus you're an arrogant bastard who refuses to admit he's wrong about anything, not even the most trivial matter, not even to own up to a simple misstatement.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Baptism of Desire and of Blood
    « Reply #16 on: July 06, 2016, 12:41:24 PM »
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  • Just to set the record straight I never claimed the Church teaches that one can be saved by implicit Faith which would be a heresy.  I hope that is settled now.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Baptism of Desire and of Blood
    « Reply #17 on: July 06, 2016, 01:33:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Just to set the record straight I never claimed the Church teaches that one can be saved by implicit Faith which would be a heresy.  I hope that is settled now.  


    No, it's not settled.  So implicit faith is a heresy despite the fact that you have stated otherwise?  How do you define implicit faith?

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Baptism of Desire and of Blood
    « Reply #18 on: July 06, 2016, 02:19:03 PM »
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  • I never claim implicit Faith can save anyone.  I thought we agreed.  You disagree?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Baptism of Desire and of Blood
    « Reply #19 on: July 07, 2016, 04:00:55 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Baptism of Desire and Blood
    MATER DEI SEMINARY newsletter "Adsum" (January, 2004)

    From the teachings of the Popes, the Council of Trent,
    the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Roman Martyrology,
    Church Fathers, Doctors and Theologians of the Church

    1. Council of Trent 1545-1563

    Canons on the Sacraments in General: - (Canon 4):
       "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."


    As we can see, the first part of Canon 4 decrees the necessity of the sacraments for salvation: "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous....let him be anathema."

    Keeping in mind that a BOD is not a sacrament, Trent decrees that a BOD, since it is no sacrament at all, can never save anyone. Trent also decrees if anyone shall say it can, we are to let them be anathema.

    Onto the second part of Canon 4, we learn the sacraments or the desire for the sacraments can put us in the state of justification - and whoever says otherwise, is anathema.  
    ...and [if anyone shall say] that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them, through faith alone, men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."

    So why does rabid BODer LoT keep anathematizing himself spamming the internet with salvation via a BOD which is not a sacrament? Can anyone answer why one who says he loves the truth keeps anathematizing himself? .....Anyone? Can LoT himself or can anyone answer this question?

    Don't get me wrong, I would love to make a perfect act of contrition and be in heaven, or upon the words of absolution from the priest in the confessional be rewarded heaven, or upon having some desire for the sacrament find myself in heaven. Who wouldn't?

    I think it's safe to say that whoever wouldn't has something seriously wrong with them. The thing is, Holy Mother the Church decreed something more substantial is necessary. That something is the actual reception of the sacrament, as decreed in the first part of Canon 4.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #20 on: July 07, 2016, 05:28:18 AM »
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  • Trent teaches to opposite of what you wish it would teach.  Have you and Ladislaus got to the bottom of what you disagree on concerning Trent?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Baptism of Desire and of Blood
    « Reply #21 on: July 07, 2016, 06:10:51 AM »
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  • All you need to do is read it as it is written to understand that a BOD, that is, no sacrament at all, cannot save anyone.

    So why is it that you keep spamming the internet with salvation via NSAA when Trent decrees without them there can be no salvation?

    Do you purposely anathematize yourself or do you simply not care?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Baptism of Desire and of Blood
    « Reply #22 on: July 07, 2016, 06:50:31 AM »
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  • Why is it that you understand Trent better than Bellarmine and Liguori?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Stubborn

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    Baptism of Desire and of Blood
    « Reply #23 on: July 07, 2016, 08:08:10 AM »
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  • Why is it that you do not answer the clear question with an actual answer?

    Trent decrees: "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous....let him be anathema."

    A BOD is not a sacrament.

    Do you purposely anathematize yourself or do you simply not care?


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Baptism of Desire and of Blood
    « Reply #24 on: July 07, 2016, 08:11:10 AM »
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  • No offense but I take Bellarmine and Ligouri over you.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Baptism of Desire and of Blood
    « Reply #25 on: July 07, 2016, 08:16:55 AM »
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  • Sorry, but the truth for those who love the truth is that you take your own opinion over Trent.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #26 on: July 07, 2016, 08:34:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    I never claim implicit Faith can save anyone.  I thought we agreed.  You disagree?


    Define what you mean by implicit faith.  You called it heresy a few posts ago.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #27 on: July 07, 2016, 08:46:26 AM »
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  • Implicit faith would be a desire to have the faith without actually having it.  

    In a sense, IMO, it is not even a legitimate term in the sense that "implicit faith" is no faith at all.  You either have the faith or you do not.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #28 on: July 07, 2016, 08:48:38 AM »
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  • It is heresy to believe that implicit Faith saves.  Implicit faith does nothing of the sort.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #29 on: July 07, 2016, 09:05:25 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Implicit faith would be a desire to have the faith without actually having it.  

    In a sense, IMO, it is not even a legitimate term in the sense that "implicit faith" is no faith at all.  You either have the faith or you do not.  


    That's not what anyone here is talking about.  And your definition simply doesn't even make sense.  What you mean is faith of desire.  So you are correct that implicit faith is not a legitimate description for what you mean.

    That is NOT what anyone here has accused you of promoting.  I defined how everyone else means implicit faith several posts ago, but you ignored that post.  Implicit faith is shorthand for explicit faith in Rewarder God (with implicit faith in the supernatural revealed truths such as the Holy Trinity and Incarnation).