I know I am right of this, as I have every authority in my side: Council of Trent, Popes, all approved catechisms, all of the Doctors of the Church, the theologians, and canon law.

I know I am right of this, as I have every authority in my side: JESUS.

Ambrose, as you know, I consider your sensus catholicus and your ecclesiology to be deeply flawed and self-contradictory.  Nor has "The Church" ever taught BoD.  That's the subject under discussion.  Obviously if I believed that the Church taught BoD I would accept it, since my faith has as it's proximate norm the magisterium of the Church.  Those very same theologians whom you cite as authorities on BoD are the same theologians you rejected in having brought us Vatican II.  Pius XII appointed >90% of the Bishops who brought us Vatican II.  If those bishops are not prevented a priori from having been able to err, then neither are the pre-Vatican II theologians, eh?

Do you REALLY believe that Church theologians right before Vatican II were not thoroughly corrupted with modernism?  Already in his day, St. Pius X said that the Church, humanly speaking, was finished, so thoroughly had theologians IN HIS DAY been infected with modernism.  Do you REALLY believe that everything was great in the Church and then in the blink of an eye suddenly turned bad?  It doesn't happen that way.  If the Church's state were so wonderful at that time, people would not have lapped up the Vatican II errors.

IN FACT, Ambrose, you can trace the origins of Vatican II DIRECTLY to the ecclesiology / soteriology that emerged as a direct result of exploiting this concept of Baptism of Desire to undermine EENS.  You yourself, Ambrose, are guilty of the same error as Vatican II, and therefore by your own criteria are not Catholic.

If you were to hold, as EVERY ONE of those EARLY authorities you cited did, that BoD was a phenomenon restricted to catechumens or those with explicit Catholic faith, and that this was your opinion, then I would have no quarrel with you ... except by way of friendly disagreement.  But when you extend BoD and therefore membership in the Church to those who are not Catholic, are not subject to the Supreme Pontiff, do not have explicit faith in the core supernatural mysteries of the faith, then you are THE SAME as the Vatican II modernists.  In fact, if you were to convince me that this extension of BoD is correct and traditional, then I would have no choice but to accept Vatican II as substantially free from error.

Quote from: bowler

Quote

I know I am right of this, as I have every authority in my side: Council of Trent, Popes, all approved catechisms, all of the Doctors of the Church, the theologians, and canon law.

There, that's more accurate.

Now you're just a liar.

Quote from: St Magnus

Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:5[/size]

Did Thomas Aquinas, Pius IX, Pius XII et al. miss this verse?

Quote from: clare

I've yet to see any magisterial statement condemning belief in Baptism of Desire as heretical. It's not like theologians haven't taught it for centuries, before Vatican II, without censure.

If it were an erroneous interpretation of the teaching on Baptism, there would have been a clear condemnation of it, explicitly. The Church had ample opportunity to muster up a condemnation before Vatican II happened.

It does not get any more clear than this:

Infallible Magisterium:

A. Council of Lateran IV, The Catholic Faith:

The sacrament of Baptism, which at the invocation of God and the undivided Trinity, namely the Father the Son and The Holy Ghost, is solemnized in water, rightly conferred to anyone in the form of the Church is useful unto salvation.

B. Council of Florence, Exaltate Domino (1439):

Holy Baptism...holds the first place among the sacraments....the matter of this sacrament is real and natural water, it makes no difference warm or cold.

C. Pope Innocent III, Non ut Apponeres (1206):

In Baptism, two things are always and necessarily required, namely the words and the element (water)...You ought not to doubt that they do not have true Baptism in which one of them is missing.

D. Council of Trent, Canons of Baptism (Canon 2)

If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.



The Church has consistently and infallibly taught that Baptism of water is necessary to obtain life everlasting. Also accepting Baptism of Desire as a substitute for the real Baptism opens up the possibility of salvation for members of false religions. On this, the Church has infallibly declared:

Infallible Magisterium:

* Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, proclaimed ex cathedra:

"The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire 'which was prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her... No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

* Pope Innocent III, ex cathedra, (Fourth Lateran Council, 1215):

"There is one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved".  

* Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302):

"We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.  

This means, and has always meant, that salvation and unity exist only within the Catholic Church, and that members of heretical groups cannot be considered as "part" of the Church of Christ. It is clear as water why the so called Baptism of Desire cannot ever become dogma since it would be contradicting Infallible teaching.



Even more, those who believe that someone with only the "desire" for Baptism can be saved presume two things that the Church has solemnly condemned:

1. That the Sacrament of Baptism, commanded by God and instituted by Christ Lord, is impossible for some to receive.

2. That the Sacrament of Baptism could be optional for some (those who die with the desire for Baptism).

Infallible Magisterium

Council of Trent, On Justification, Ch 11:

God does not command impossibilities but by commanding you admonish you to do what you can do, to pray for what you cannot do, and He assists you that you may be able. For God does not forsake those who have been justified by His Grace unless He first be forsaken by them.

And

If anyone says that the commandments of God are, even for a man who us justified, impossible to obtain let it be anathema.  

Council of Trent, Canons of Baptism, Canon 5:

If anyone says that Baptism of optional, that is not necessary for salvation, let it be anathema.



Even the Holy Mother Church Herself has no power to contradict or change in any way what Our Lord Christ said and taught when He came to earth. No bishop, no council, no pope, no saint, NO ONE, can change the essential matter or form of a Sacrament instituted by Our Lord. It is part of the Deposit of Faith.

In several occasions the Magisterium of Holy Mother Church has positively declared that no one has the power to innovate anything whatsoever regarding the substance of the Sacraments (substance meaning matter (in this case, natural WATER, and form (words, as expressed in John 3:5).

Infallible Magisterium

Pope ST Pius X: "It is well known that the Church there belongs no right whatsoever to innovate anything touching the substance of the Sacraments". Thus even the Church Herself has no power or authority to alter the words or matter in the form of the Sacrament of Baptism.  

Pope Pius XII: " As the Council of Trent teaches the seven sacraments  of the New Law have all been instituted by Jesus Christ, Our Lord, and the Church has no power over the "substance of the sacraments ".

Quote from: Lover of Truth

Quote from: St Magnus

Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:5[/size]

Did Thomas Aquinas, Pius IX, Pius XII et al. miss this verse?

It would really like an answer to this question from a good-willed intellectually honest person of the Feeneyite persuasion, as an accurate answer to the question plays an important role in solving the debate.

St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica III, Q. 68, Art. 2: “... it seems that a man
can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible
sanctification...”
 
Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Can. 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism, Sess. 7,
1547, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that baptism [the sacrament] is optional, that
is, not necessary for salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema.”

who should I believe here, St Thomas or the Pope?