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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church  (Read 12340 times)

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Offline Ambrose

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Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church
« on: January 20, 2014, 03:37:05 PM »
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  • Baptism of Blood and of Desire

    From the teachings of the Popes, the Council of Trent, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Roman Martyrology, the Fathers, Doctors and Theologians of the Church

    1. COUNCIL OF TRENT (1545-1563)
    Canons on the Sacraments in General (Canon 4):

    “If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justiflcation; let him be anathema.”

    Decree on Justification (Session 6, Chapter 4):

    “In these words a description of the justification of a sinner is given as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of the ‘adoption of the Sons’ (Rom. 8:15) of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior and this translation after the promulgation of the Gospel cannot be effected except through the layer of regeneration or a desire for it, (sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto[/i]) as it is written: ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter in the kingdom of God’ (John 3:5).”

    2. ST. ALPHONSUS LIGUORI (1691-1787)
    Moral Theology (Bk. 6):

    “But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind␅ [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”

    3. 1917 CODE OF CANON LAW On Ecclesiastical Burial (Canon 1239. 2)

    “Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized.” — The Sacred Canons
    by Rev. John A. Abbo. St.T.L., J.C.D., and Rev. Jerome D. Hannan, A.M., LL.B., S.T.D., J.C.D.
    Commentary on the Code:
    “The reason for this rule is that they are justly supposed to have met death united to Christ through Baptism of desire.”

    4. POPE INNOCENT III
    Apostolicam:

    To your inquiry we respond thus: We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of Holy Mother the Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland. Read (brother) in the eighth book of Augustine’s City of God where among other things it is written, “Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes.” Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned (Denzinger 388).

    Debitum pastoralis officii, August 28, 1206:

    You have, to be sure, intimated that a certain Jew, when at the point of death, since he lived only among Jews, immersed himself in water while saying: “I baptize myself in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.”
    We respond that, since there should be a distinction between the one baptizing and the one baptized, as is clearly gathered from the words of the Lord, when He says to the Apostles: “Go baptize all nations in the name etc.” (cf. Matt. 28:19), the Jew mentioned must be baptized again by another, that it may be shown that he who is baptized is one person, and he who baptizes another... If, however, such a one had died immediately, he would have rushed off to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith (Denzinger 413).

    5. POPE ST. PIUS V (1566-1572)

    Ex omnibus afflictionibus, October 1, 1567

    Condemned the following erroneous propositions of Michael du Bay:

    Perfect and sincere charity, which is from a “pure heart and good conscience and a faith not feigned” (1 Tim. 1:5) can be in catechumens as well as in penitents without the remission of sins.

    That charity which is the fullness of the law is not always connected with the remission of sins.

    A catechumen lives justly and rightly and holily, and observes the commandments of God, and fulfills the law through charity, which is only received in the laver of Baptism, before the remission of sins has been obtained.

    6. ST. AMBROSE

    “I hear you express grief because he [Valentinian] did not receive the Sacrament of Baptism. Tell me, what else is there in us except the will and petition? But he had long desired to be initiated... and expressed his intention to be baptized... Surely, he received [it] because he asked [for it].”

    7. ST. AUGUSTINE, City of God

    “I do not hesitate to place the Catholic catechumen, who is burning with the love of God, before the baptized heretic... The centurion Cornelius, before Baptism, was better than Simon [Magus], who had been baptized. For Cornelius, even before Baptism, was filled with the Holy Ghost, while Simon, after Baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit” (De Bapt. C. Donat., IV 21).

    8. ST. THOMAS AQUINAS
    Summa, Article 1, Part III, Q. 68:

    “I answer that, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.

    “Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of faith that worketh by charity, whereby God, Whose power is not yet tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: ‘I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the graces he prayed for.’”

    9. ST. ROBERT BELLARMINE, Doctor of the Church (1542-1621)
    Liber II, Caput XXX:

    Boni Catehecuмeni sunt de Ecclesia, interna unione tantum, non autem externa” (Good catechumens are of the Church, by internal union only, not however, by external union).

    10. Roman Martyrology

    January 23: At Rome, St. Emerentiana, Virgin and Martyr, who was stoned by the heathen while still a catechumen, when she was praying at the tomb of St. Agnes, whose foster-sister she was.

    April 12: At Braga, in Portugal, St. Victor, Martyr, who, while still yet a catechumen, refused to worship an idol, and confessed Christ Jesus with great constancy, and so after many torments, he merited to be baptized in his own blood, his head being cut off.

    11. POPE PIUS IX (1846-1878) — Singulari Quadam, 1854:

    174. “It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, lands, native talents, and so many other factors? Only when we have been released from the bonds of this body and see God just as He is (see John 3:2) all we really understand how close and beautiful a bond joins divine mercy with divine justice.”

    Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (1863):

    “...We all know that those who are afflicted with invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law that have been written by God in the hearts of men, if they are prepare to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can attain eternal life by the power of divine light and grace.”

    12. POPE PIUS XII (1939-1958) — Mystical Body of Christ (June 29, 1943):

    “As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible organization of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly... For even though unsuspectingly they are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer in desire and resolution, they still remain deprived of so many precious gifts and helps from heaven, which one can only enjoy in the Catholic Church.”

    13. FR. A. TANQUERY, Dogmatic Brevior; ART. IV, Section I, II - 1945 (1024-1)

    The Baptism of Desire. Contrition, or perfect charity, with at least an implicit desire for Baptism, supplies in adults the place of the baptism of water as respects the forgiveness of sins.
    This is certain.


    Explanation: a) An implicit desire for Baptism, that is, one that is included in a general purpose of keeping all the commandments of God is, as all agree, sufficient in one who is invincibly ignorant of the law of Baptism; likewise, according to the more common opinion, in one who knows the necessity of Baptism.

    b) Perfect charity, with a desire for Baptism, forgives original sin and actual sins, and therefore infuses sanctifying grace; but it does not imprint the Baptismal character and does not of itself remit the whole temporal punishment due for sin; whence, when the Unity offers, the obligation remains on
    one who was sanctified in this manner of receiving the Baptism of water.

    14. FR. DOMINIC PRUMMER, O.P., Moral Theology, 1949:

    “Baptism of Desire which is a perfect act of charity that includes at least implicitly the desire for Baptism by water”;
    “Baptism of Blood which signifies martyrdom endured for Christ prior to the reception of Baptism by Water”;
    “Regarding the effects of Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire... both cause sanctifying grace. ...Baptism of Blood usually remits all venial sin and temporal punishment...”

    15. FR. FRANCIS O’CONNELL, Outlines of Moral Theology, 1953:

    “Baptism of Desire... is an act of divine charity or perfect contrition...”

    “These means (i.e. Baptism of Blood and Desire) presuppose in the recipient at least the implicit will to receive the sacrament.”

    “...Even if an infant can gain the benefit of the Baptism of Blood if he is put to death by a person actuated by hatred for the Christian faith....”

    16. MGR. J. H. HERVE, Manuale Theologiae Dogmaticae (Vol. III: chap. IV), 1931

    II. On those for whom Baptism of water can be supplied:

    The various baptisms: from the Tridentinum itself and from the things stated, it stands firm that Baptism is necessary, yet in fact or in desire; therefore in an extraordinary case it can be supplied. Further, according to the Catholic doctrine, there are two things by which the sacrament of Baptism can be supplied: namely, an act of perfect charity with the desire of Baptism, and the death as martyr. Since these two are a compensation for Baptism of water, they themselves are called Baptism, too, in order that they may be comprehended with it under one, as it were, generic name, so the act of love with desire for Baptism is called Baptismus flaminis (Baptism of the Spirit) and the martyrium (Baptism of Blood).

    17. FR. H. NOLDEN, S.J., FR. A. SCHMIT, S.J. Summa theologiae moralis (Vol. III de Sacramentis), Book 2 Quaestio prima, 1921

    Baptism of spirit (flaminis) is perfect charity or contrition, in which the desire in fact to receive the sacrament of Baptism is included; perfect charity and perfect contrition, however, have the power to confer sanctifying grace.

    18. FR. ARTHUR VERMEERSCH, S.J., Theologiae Moralis (Vol. III), Tractatus II, 1948:

    The Baptism of spirit (flaminis) is an act of perfect charity or contrition, in so far as it contains at least a tacit desire of the Sacrament. Therefore it can be had only in adults. It does not imprint a character; ...but it takes away all mortal sin together with the sentence of eternal penalty, according to: “He who loves me, is loved by my Father” (John 14:21).

    19. FR. LUDOVICO BILLOT, S.J., De Ecclesiae Sacmmentis (Vol. I); Quaestio LXVI; Thesis XXIV - 1931:

    Baptism of spirit (flaminis), which is also called of repentance or of desire, is nothing else than an act of charity or perfect contrition including a desire of the Sacrament, according to what has been said above, namely that the heart of everyone is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe, and to love God, and to be sorry for his sins.

    20. FR. ALOYSIA SABETTI, S.J., FR. TIMOTHEO BARRETT, S.J., Compendium Theologiae Moralis, Tractatus XII [De Baptismo, Chapter I, 1926:

    Baptism, the gate and foundation of the Sacraments, in fact or at least in desire, is necessary for all unto salvation...
    >From the Baptism of water, which is called of river (Baptismus fluminis), is from Baptism of the Spirit (Baptismus flaminis) and Baptism of Blood, by which Baptism properly speaking can be supplied, if this be impossible. The first one is a full conversion to God through perfect contrition or charity, in so far as it contains an either explicit or at least implicit will to receive Baptism of water... Baptism of Spirit (flaminis) and Baptism of Blood are called Baptism of desire (in voto).

    21. FR. EDUARDUS GENICOT, S.]., Theologiae Moralis Institutiones (Vol. II), Tractatus XII, 1902

    Baptism of the Spirit (flaminis) consists in an act of perfect charity or contrition, with which there is always an infusion of sanctifying grace connected...
    Both are called “of desire” (in voto)...; perfect charity, because it has always connected the desire, at least the implicit one, of receiving this sacrament, absolutely necessary for salvation.


    SOURCE
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Matto

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    Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church
    « Reply #1 on: January 20, 2014, 03:39:08 PM »
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  • Please define what baptism of desire is.
    R.I.P.
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    Offline Ambrose

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    Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church
    « Reply #2 on: January 20, 2014, 03:49:07 PM »
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  • Matto,  

    This definition is from the 1913 CE:

    The Baptism of Desire:

    Quote
    The baptism of desire (baptismus flaminis) is a perfect contrition of heart, and every act of perfect charity or pure love of God which contains, at least implicitly, a desire (votum) of baptism. The Latin word flamen is used because Flamen is a name for the Holy Ghost, Whose special office it is to move the heart to love God and to conceive penitence for sin. The "baptism of the Holy Ghost" is a term employed in the third century by the anonymous author of the book "De Rebaptismate". The efficacy of this baptism of desire to supply the place of the baptism of water, as to its principal effect, is proved from the words of Christ. After He had declared the necessity of baptism (John 3), He promised justifying grace for acts of charity or perfect contrition (John 14): "He that loveth Me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." And again: "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him." Since these texts declare that justifying grace is bestowed on account of acts of perfect charity or contrition, it is evident that these acts supply the place of baptism as to its principal effect, the remission of sins. This doctrine is set forth clearly by the Council of Trent. In the fourteenth session (cap. iv) the council teaches that contrition is sometimes perfected by charity, and reconciles man to God, before the Sacrament of Penance is received. In the fourth chapter of the sixth session, in speaking of the necessity of baptism, it says that men can not obtain original justice "except by the washing of regeneration or its desire" (voto). The same doctrine is taught by Pope Innocent III (cap. Debitum, iv, De Bapt.), and the contrary propositions are condemned by Popes Pius V and Gregory XII, in proscribing the 31st and 33rd propositions of Baius.

    We have already alluded to the funeral oration pronounced by St. Ambrose over the Emperor Valentinian II, a catechumen. The doctrine of the baptism of desire is here clearly set forth. St. Ambrose asks: "Did he not obtain the grace which he desired? Did he not obtain what he asked for? Certainly he obtained it because he asked for it." St. Augustine (On Baptism, Against the Donatists, IV.22) and St. Bernard (Ep. lxxvii, ad H. de S. Victore) likewise discourse in the same sense concerning the baptism of desire. If it be said that this doctrine contradicts the universal law of baptism made by Christ (John 3), the answer is that the lawgiver has made an exception (John 14) in favor of those who have the baptism of desire. Neither would it be a consequence of this doctrine that a person justified by the baptism of desire would thereby be dispensed from seeking after the baptism of water when the latter became a possibility. For, as has already been explained the baptismus flaminis contains the votum of receiving the baptismus aquæ. It is true that some of the Fathers of the Church arraign severely those who content themselves with the desire of receiving the sacrament of regeneration, but they are speaking of catechumens who of their own accord delay the reception of baptism from unpraiseworthy motives. Finally, it is to be noted that only adults are capable of receiving the baptism of desire.


    SOURCE
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Matto

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    Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church
    « Reply #3 on: January 20, 2014, 03:53:05 PM »
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  • Thanks. I will read it.
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church
    « Reply #4 on: January 20, 2014, 04:08:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Baptism of Blood and of Desire

    From the teachings of the Popes, the Council of Trent, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Roman Martyrology, the Fathers, Doctors and Theologians of the Church

    1. COUNCIL OF TRENT (1545-1563)
    Canons on the Sacraments in General (Canon 4):

    “If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justiflcation; let him be anathema.”



    Thanks for putting this one on top - no need to read the rest after seeing this blatant error in your reading of the teaching of Trent who is teaching about the sacrament, not equating the desire of it for the actual reception of the sacrament.

    If it was teaching what you want it to teach, the sacraments would be superfluous because the desire for the sacrament would suffice for salvation - however, when one reads the whole canon and not just 5 or 6 words to take out of context, we see Trent first teaches of their absolute necessity for salvation:

    “If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous,.......let him be anathema.

    A BOD makes the sacrament superfluous and not necessary for salvation - so tell us, are you  trying to convince us that the sacrament is not necessary for salvation Ambrose?

    Now knowing *first* that the sacraments are necessary unto salvation, read the next part:

    "and [if anyone shall say] that although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justiflcation; let him be anathema.”

    We can see that without the sacrament or without the desire of them, men cannot even obtain the grace of justification let alone salvation - and whoever says otherwise is anathema.

    Ambrose, do you say that without the sacraments of the desire to receive them that man, through a BOD (faith alone) can obtain the grace of justification?

    If you do, then plainly, you, Ambrose, are anathema.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church
    « Reply #5 on: January 20, 2014, 04:14:45 PM »
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  • I forgot to add that this is another post trivializing the sacrament from one who despises the sacraments.

    Perhaps one day Ambrose or SJB or LoT will do the Catholic thing and start a thread defending the holy sacraments instituted by Our Holy Lord for the good of our souls and for the hope of our salvation, until then, the anti-Catholic threads preaching against the necessity of the sacraments which, as Trent teaches, are necessary unto salvation, will reign as their lex credendi.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church
    « Reply #6 on: January 20, 2014, 04:30:45 PM »
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  • I'll dismiss 12-21 as nothing but mindless repetition by various modernist-influenced Jesuits (for the most part) and as irrelevant in establishing the dogmatic nature of this opinion.

    I'll get back to 1-11 (which involve a hodge-podge of misinterpreted / misunderstood quotations) ... tonight when/as I have time.

    You'll notice that the derivative / source "authorities" are always Augustine and Ambrose.  Augustine proposed the idea in very tentative language (never "taught" it) and then later rejected the idea, unbeknownst to his medieval followers, while St. Ambrose clearly did not teach BoD (his oration about Valentinian has been misinterpreted).  Meanwhile you have other Fathers (lesser authorities?) who openly reject the idea but are lesser known because they're Greek Fathers.

    I'll trace everything in coherent logical order to show that there's ZERO evidence for the existence of BoD anywhere other than in the realm of speculative theology.

    PS -- you have the key to the correct understanding of Trent right there in your St. Thomas quote but don't have enough sincerity and good will to see it.



    Offline bowler

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    Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church
    « Reply #7 on: January 20, 2014, 06:47:32 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    .

     Baptism of Desire is de fide, and must be believed. It is part of the Apostolic Tradition, has been taught by the ordinary magisterium, and taught infallibly by the Council of Trent.



     Ambrose the end run man. Parrots his "defide" lie end run.along with all the other quotes that contain errors which he keeps repeating

     Practically every answer from BoDers here on CI are end runs, actions to circuмvent, bypass, the impediment of detailed discussion. They are actions to avoid a difficult situation by dodging it without confronting it directly. Never once do they get into the details of BOD, relying instead on quoting gratuitous statements that bypass all detailed discussions on the subject.

     All the while they say that all the dogmatic decrees on EENS and BOD must not be understood as they are written (See CI thread "Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written"), THE BIGGEST END RUN OF ALL!

     If BODers were to submit an actual genuine theological argument for BoD, it would make for a real interesting debate here on CI. Instead, once again we get just another end run. Repeating ad-nauseum your false claim like the  "defide," canard to circuмvent, bypass the impediment of detailed discussions like the threads:

     - Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written
     - Justification by BOD and Being Born Again
     - St. Alphonsus BOD Defide Canard


    It's a waste of time to discuss the details with people like Amdro, because they do not know what they believe, they just post and paste whatever someone says that they agree with.


    Offline bowler

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    Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church
    « Reply #8 on: January 20, 2014, 06:59:50 PM »
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  • Practically every answer from  BoDers here on CI are end runs, actions to circuмvent, bypass, the impediment of detailed discussion. They are actions  to avoid a difficult situation by dodging it without confronting it directly. Never once do they get into the details of BOD, relying instead on quoting gratuitous statements that bypass all detailed discussions on the subject.

    All these quotes from Amdro are plain and simple lies, bad translations, distortions of quotes, and outright lies. He's been shown this many times yet he continues to post these quotes without being embarrassed to look like a fool again. No point in discussing them with him because he does not know what they mean. He is only a hollow parrot.

    All the while the BODers like Amdro say that all the dogmatic decrees on EENS and BOD must not be understood as they are written (See CI thread "Quotes that BODers Say Must Not be Understood as Written"), THE BIGGEST END RUN OF ALL!

    If BODers were to submit an actual genuine theological argument for BoD, it would make for a real interesting debate here on CI.  Instead, at most all we get are cut and paste jobs like this posting by Ambrose, which he does not understand himself and therefore can’t discuss in detail. Once again,  just another end run.

    I'm still waiting for a rational argument from the BoDers here on CI on the details. Call me when you find someone that actually knows what they are cut and pasting here.

    Offline St Magnus

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    Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church
    « Reply #9 on: January 20, 2014, 07:45:30 PM »
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  • Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    John 3:5
    [/size]

    Offline St Magnus

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    Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church
    « Reply #10 on: January 20, 2014, 07:53:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: St Magnus
    Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    John 3:5
    [/size]


    it's not that hard to understand


    Offline Conspiracy_Factist

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    Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church
    « Reply #11 on: January 20, 2014, 08:53:40 PM »
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  • has there ever been a poll on this forum to see just how many people believe in bod as St Alpohonsus taught...how many believe you must be baptized ...and how many people believe in implicit faith (heroin bod'ers)

    Offline Matto

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    Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church
    « Reply #12 on: January 20, 2014, 10:59:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Matto,  

    This definition is from the 1913 CE:


    I don't think that is a good definition at all. It leaves a lot unexplained. It does not even say if those who have baptism of desire have to go to purgatory to make up for their sins. I have heard that some who believe in BOD think that those who have it still have to go to purgatory unlike those who have real baptism but this definition doesn't say anything about that.
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    Offline Ambrose

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    Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church
    « Reply #13 on: January 20, 2014, 11:22:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Matto,  

    This definition is from the 1913 CE:


    I don't think that is a good definition at all. It leaves a lot unexplained. It does not even say if those who have baptism of desire have to go to purgatory to make up for their sins. I have heard that some who believe in BOD think that those who have it still have to go to purgatory unlike those who have real baptism but this definition doesn't say anything about that.


    It is a very precise definition.  BoD has nothing to do with the doctrine on Purgatory.  
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    Baptism of Desire and Blood: The Teaching of the Church
    « Reply #14 on: January 20, 2014, 11:26:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    I forgot to add that this is another post trivializing the sacrament from one who despises the sacraments.

    Perhaps one day Ambrose or SJB or LoT will do the Catholic thing and start a thread defending the holy sacraments instituted by Our Holy Lord for the good of our souls and for the hope of our salvation, until then, the anti-Catholic threads preaching against the necessity of the sacraments which, as Trent teaches, are necessary unto salvation, will reign as their lex credendi.


    To believe in Catholic Doctrine does not trivialize the sacraments.  It keep telling you. But you will not hear it:  As a Catholic, you must believe in Baptism of Desire.  It is not optional.  It is part of the Deposit of Faith, and to deny it is heresy.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic