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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?  (Read 6620 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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  • Then it should be no problem to retract the false attribution.  But, for some reason, it is.

    There’s no one who isn’t retracting it.  We all retract it.  Future citations will be to “an article published by the SSPV”, just as we cite “an article published by the CMRI” entitled “The Salvation of those Outside the Church” — which I did look up. This is a case of a poster attributing it incorrectly and people repeating it without looking it up.  There was no malice here.  It’s even possible that Fr. Cekada quoted it in some other context that we can’t find, causing the original poster to believe it was his own.  Not sure how the mistake was made, but I doubt it was done on purpose.  Very few of us have the time to look up every single quote.  There are probably a dozen or more fake “sayings of Padre Pio” on the web that live on for the same reason.

    When people cite it, it’s to demonstrate an IDEA that we contend is actually behind WHY most people end up being BoD zealots.  When you scratch beneath the surface, you almost always find that this sentiment is actually what drives it.  It’s to your credit that you’re honestly looking at this issue despite the fact that an implicit BoD would comfort you regarding your mother.  In this quote we have someone finally admitting this motivation honestly, which is why we keep referring to it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • For hundreds of years we had Catholic theologians and even one Pope falsely claiming St. Augustine as their authority for BoD whereas he clearly retracted his position ... as admitted even by Karl “αnσnymσus Christian” Rahner.  And this has been repeatedly demonstrated, but the BoDers will not retract citing Augustine as “proof” for BoD.

    Lots of BoDers keep falsely keep claiming that the Church Fathers unanimously endorsed BoD when almost the opposite is true.  Fr. Laisney famously used ellipses to change the import of several quotes.  If there’s deliberate dishonesty here, it’s on the BoD side.  This was likely just a mistake, and those of us who perpetuated it retract it.


    Offline DecemRationis

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  • Thank you DR.  Have a blessed Sunday!
    And blessings to you, 2 Vermont. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • For hundreds of years we had Catholic theologians and even one Pope falsely claiming St. Augustine as their authority for BoD whereas he clearly retracted his position ... as admitted even by Karl “αnσnymσus Christian” Rahner.  And this has been repeatedly demonstrated, but the BoDers will not retract citing Augustine as “proof” for BoD.


    Well, I believe St. Thomas did cite St. Augustine as supporting BOD. That's pretty good company, and I think clears others who do so of any bad will in that regard - they likely simply rely upon St. Thomas.

    That being said, the "retraction" speaks volumes. 

    It would be a good idea to post the retraction here. If it's not handy to anyone, I'll look it up and post it if I find it. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • Lots of BoDers keep falsely keep claiming that the Church Fathers unanimously endorsed BoD when almost the opposite is true.  

    Too easy assumptions are a great enemy of truth. And they just get repeated over, and over, and over . . .

    This is a major reason why the discussion and exchanges here are so valuable.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline DecemRationis

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  • Too easy assumptions are a great enemy of truth. And they just get repeated over, and over, and over . . .

    This is a major reason why the discussion and exchanges here are so valuable.

    I'm looking into the St. Augustine "retraction" of BOD. 

    After about 15 minutes of doing so, let me hastily add: perhaps the "retraction" of BOD by St. Augustine is a "too easy assumption." 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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  • This should get interesting.

    St. Augustine's professed support for BOD comes in Book IV, Chapter 22 of his book, On Baptism Against the Donatists. There he states:


    Quote
    Chapter 22.

    30. That the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by martyrdom is supported by an argument by no means trivial, which the blessed Cyprian adduces from the thief, to whom, though he was not baptized, it was yet said, "Today shall you be with me in Paradise." Luke 23:43 On considering which, again and again, I find that not only martyrdom for the sake of Christ may supply what was wanting of baptism, but also faith and conversion of heart, if recourse may not be had to the celebration of the mystery of baptism for want of time. For neither was that thief crucified for the name of Christ, but as the reward of his own deeds; nor did he suffer because he believed, but he believed while suffering. It was shown, therefore, in the case of that thief, how great is the power, even without the visible sacrament of baptism, of what the apostle says, "With the heart man believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:10 But the want is supplied invisibly only when the administration of baptism is prevented, not by contempt for religion, but by the necessity of the moment. For much more in the case of Cornelius and his friends, than in the case of that robber, might it seem superfluous that they should also be baptized with water, seeing that in them the gift of the Holy Spirit, which, according to the testimony of holy Scripture, was received by other men only after baptism, had made itself manifest by every unmistakable sign appropriate to those times when they spoke with tongues. Yet they were baptized, and for this action we have the authority of an apostle as the warrant. So far ought all of us to be from being induced by any imperfection in the inner man, if it so happen that before baptism a person has advanced, through the workings of a pious heart, to spiritual understanding, to despise a sacrament which is applied to the body by the hands of the minister, but which is God's own means for working spiritually a man's dedication to Himself. Nor do I conceive that the function of baptizing was assigned to John, so that it should be called John's baptism, for any other reason except that the Lord Himself, who had appointed it, in not disdaining to receive the baptism of His servant, Matthew 3:6, 13 might consecrate the path of humility, and show most plainly by such an action how high a value was to be placed on His own baptism, with which He Himself was afterwards to baptize. For He saw, like an excellent physician of eternal salvation, that overweening pride would be found in some, who, having made such progress in the understanding of the truth and in uprightness of character that they would not hesitate to place themselves, both in life and knowledge, above many that were baptized, would think it was unnecessary for them to be baptized, since they felt that they had attained a frame of mind to which many that were baptized were still only endeavoring to raise themselves.


    CHURCH FATHERS: On Baptism, Book IV (Augustine) (newadvent.org)

    In his book, The Retractions, St. Augustine reviews his 7 books on baptism regarding the Donatists, and makes a correction as noted below about his statement regarding the good thief for the sake of being accurate and precise about whether he was baptized or not, but says nothing about retracting his support for the position that one could be regenerated before receiving the sacrament, as in "the want is supplied invisibly only when the administration of baptism is prevented, not by contempt for religion, but by the necessity of the moment."

    Here's the sole retraction regarding the very section at issue cited above:

    Quote
    In the fourth book, when I said: "Suffering can take the place of baptism,” 5 I cited the example of the thief, which is not quite appropriate, for it is uncertain whether he had been baptized

    Augustine Retractations : St Augustine : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

    Where's the "retraction" of BOD? For the sake of truth and being accurate, he's simply correcting a statement about the good thief, since in his case "it is uncertain whether he has been baptized." That's it.

    If St. Augustine indeed "retracted" a support of BOD, that would have been the time, while scrutinizing error in the very section where he supported BOD.

    He didn't retract his support of the concept.










    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Stubborn

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  • Since it is a de fide teaching of the Church and the highest of this world's authorities defined infallibly that the sacrament is necessary for salvation, I ask the simple question - why continually quote teachings from the greatest saints and doctors when their teachings contradict defined dogmas?

    Do BODers disagree that defined dogma over rules everything and everyone - even St. Thomas, St. Augustine, Saint Alphonsus - and anyone else who taught/teaches contrary to defined dogma?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • Here's the sole retraction regarding the very section at issue cited above:

    Where's the "retraction" of BOD? For the sake of truth and being accurate, he's simply correcting a statement about the good thief, since in his case "it is uncertain whether he has been baptized." That's it.

    If St. Augustine indeed "retracted" a support of BOD, that would have been the time, while scrutinizing error in the very section where he supported BOD.

    He didn't retract his support of the concept.
    See new thread 
    St. Augustine's Abandonment of BOD of the Catechumen

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • There’s no one who isn’t retracting it.  We all retract it.  Future citations will be to “an article published by the SSPV”, just as we cite “an article published by the CMRI” entitled “The Salvation of those Outside the Church” — which I did look up. This is a case of a poster attributing it incorrectly and people repeating it without looking it up.  There was no malice here.  It’s even possible that Fr. Cekada quoted it in some other context that we can’t find, causing the original poster to believe it was his own.  Not sure how the mistake was made, but I doubt it was done on purpose.  Very few of us have the time to look up every single quote.  There are probably a dozen or more fake “sayings of Padre Pio” on the web that live on for the same reason.

    When people cite it, it’s to demonstrate an IDEA that we contend is actually behind WHY most people end up being BoD zealots.  When you scratch beneath the surface, you almost always find that this sentiment is actually what drives it.  It’s to your credit that you’re honestly looking at this issue despite the fact that an implicit BoD would comfort you regarding your mother.  In this quote we have someone finally admitting this motivation honestly, which is why we keep referring to it.
    I looked in my archives and could not find where I got that Fr. Cekada said that. It looks like the articles I had were all about Fr. Cekada defending the salvation of Muslims, Jҽωs, Hindus etc., and the SSPV article was tied to it, so over time I gave the credit for the quote to Fr. Cekada for his honesty, very unusual in a BODer. Anyone that goes back to all the times that I posted the quote will see that I complemented Fr. Cekada on his honesty. I now retract that complement. The complement belongs to someone named Fenton, who I never heard of.


    Offline Ladislaus

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  • What!  How dare you to copy and paste!

    He's just finally gotten fed up with the BoD spamming and said, "see, we can do it too."

    Next time someone spams in those same 3 or 4 BoD quotes, I'm going to have my own copy-paste job handy.

    See, I always take the time to give a thoughtful response and rarely spam, but I'm getting sick of wasting my time refuting the same crap over and over and over again.  I'm this close to joining the game.

    I have half a mind to spam in the entire 300-page Dimond treatment of No Salvation Outside the Church.

    Offline MyrnaM

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  • He's just finally gotten fed up with the BoD spamming and said, "see, we can do it too."

    Next time someone spams in those same 3 or 4 BoD quotes, I'm going to have my own copy-paste job handy.

    See, I always take the time to give a thoughtful response and rarely spam, but I'm getting sick of wasting my time refuting the same crap over and over and over again.  I'm this close to joining the game.

    I have half a mind to spam in the entire 300-page Dimond treatment of No Salvation Outside the Church.
    Sorry if I offended you, but now you know how we feel.  It would be a better idea to spend your energy on converting all these infidels you worry about that are going to steal a place in heaven.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

    My new blog @ https://myforever.blog/blog/

    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • It would be a better idea to spend your energy on converting all these infidels you worry about ...  
    That is exactly why I am posting here, to show the infidels that what you are teaching is a lie from Satan, that the only tue religion is the Catholic faith, that to be saved they must become Catholics and really live the faith and die without one mortal sin on their soul, that even if they shed their blood for Christ they can't be saved unless they are Catholics and live in the sacraments. In short:

    “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jҽωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • Sorry if I offended you, but now you know how we feel.  It would be a better idea to spend your energy on converting all these infidels you worry about that are going to steal a place in heaven.  
    Interesting that you honestly use the word infidels:

    The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:

    “It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.