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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?  (Read 6618 times)

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Online 2Vermont

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  • The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”

    This article/quote is reproduced on MHFM:
    https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholic/heretical-traditional-priests-sspv-salvation/#.YE01LJ1KiK8

    So, this article/specific quote (from The Roman Catholic, SSPV, Fall 2003 issue) was apparently written by Fr Fenton, not Fr Cekada.  In addition, Fr Cekada left the SSPV in 1989, so he couldn't have possibly written this article for the SSPV in 2003.  I knew something was off about this accusation.

    Granted, I am sure that some would still disagree with Fr Cekada's true position on BOD, but he NEVER said/wrote what has been attributed to him.  

    It's time to set the record straight.  
    It's not even Fr Fenton.  My apologies.  The author is someone named Francis Fenton.

    Offline Motorede

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  • It's not even Fr Fenton.  My apologies.  The author is someone named Francis Fenton.
    There was a Father Francis Fenton who founded, in the early days of the "resistance",  the ORCM (Orthodox Roman Cath. Movement). Lived in Connecticut, Monroe CT, I think. Bishop McKenna took over his chapel at Father's death.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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  • The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”

    This article/quote is reproduced on MHFM:
    https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholic/heretical-traditional-priests-sspv-salvation/#.YE01LJ1KiK8

    So, this article/specific quote (from The Roman Catholic, SSPV, Fall 2003 issue) was apparently written by Fr Fenton, not Fr Cekada.  In addition, Fr Cekada left the SSPV in 1989, so he couldn't have possibly written this article for the SSPV in 2003.  I knew something was off about this accusation.

    Granted, I am sure that some would still disagree with Fr Cekada's true position on BOD, but he NEVER said/wrote what has been attributed to him.  

    It's time to set the record straight.  
    If it was not Fr. Cekada, he had at least 10 years to refute it. And even if he left the SSPV, they could still publish his quote, same as the SSPX still quotes Bp. Williamson. Nevertheless, the quote was in the SSPV publication, AND in my 25 years of experience with BODers, it perfectly describes, honestly decribes, admits, the position of 99% of BODers. 

    Online Pax Vobis

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  • 2Vermont, it doesn't matter who said it (i.e. Fr Cekada), what matters is the truth.  You are defending the person, while ignoring the error...a common female attribute.

    Online 2Vermont

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  • There is no proof that Fr. Cekada made that comment and if you were MEN of good will you would retract it. If truth is what matters, then it should matter who said it since it is a lie to ascribe it to someone who didn't say it.

    I made it clear that people would still disagree with his views on BOD, so no I wasn't even agreeing with his position.  In fact if anyone has been following my comments on this topic you would know that I lean towards more of a catechumen BOD.

    But that particular quote he did not say. Even the Dimond Brothers don't ascribe it to him! Nowhere do I see any reference to him saying it other than in Last Tradhican's posts (and those who clearly wish to believe it).  


    Online 2Vermont

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  • If it was not Fr. Cekada, he had at least 10 years to refute it. And even if he left the SSPV, they could still publish his quote, same as the SSPX still quotes Bp. Williamson. Nevertheless, the quote was in the SSPV publication, AND in my 25 years of experience with BODers, it perfectly describes, honestly decribes, admits, the position of 99% of BODers.
    Except the Dimond Brothers don't even ascribe it to him.  Why did you change it to Fr Cekada? 

    Online Pax Vobis

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  • Quote
    There is no proof that Fr. Cekada made that comment

    This entire thread is not anti-Cekada, as you falsely make it out to be.  We are attacking false principles, no matter who said them.
    .
    If it makes you *feel* better, then replace "Fr Cekada" with "Fr Smith".  The arguments don't change. 

    Online 2Vermont

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  • There was a Father Francis Fenton who founded, in the early days of the "resistance",  the ORCM (Orthodox Roman Cath. Movement). Lived in Connecticut, Monroe CT, I think. Bishop McKenna took over his chapel at Father's death.
    I can't seem to find that he was associated with the SSPV.  


    Online Pax Vobis

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    I can't seem to find that he was associated with the SSPV. 
    Doesn't matter.  You are (womanly) defending an organization (SSPV), while ignoring principles.
    .
    Put aside who said what (if you are femininely able to) and concentrate on the errors which remain.  It doesn't matter what priest said what.  It matters what is error and what is not.

    Online 2Vermont

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  • This entire thread is not anti-Cekada, as you falsely make it out to be.  We are attacking false principles, no matter who said them.
    .
    If it makes you *feel* better, then replace "Fr Cekada" with "Fr Smith".  The arguments don't change.
    Yet another lie. I've been involved in a number of threads on this topic so I wasn't making the whole thread out to be anti Cekada.  I was pretty clear about a specific post. 

    Online 2Vermont

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  • Doesn't matter.  You are (womanly) defending an organization (SSPV), while ignoring principles.
    .
    Put aside who said what (if you are femininely able to) and concentrate on the errors which remain.  It doesn't matter what priest said what.  It matters what is error and what is not.
    Lol...more lies. 


    Offline DecemRationis

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  • If it was not Fr. Cekada, he had at least 10 years to refute it. And even if he left the SSPV, they could still publish his quote, same as the SSPX still quotes Bp. Williamson. Nevertheless, the quote was in the SSPV publication, AND in my 25 years of experience with BODers, it perfectly describes, honestly decribes, admits, the position of 99% of BODers.
    Why would Fr. Cekada "refute" a statement in an article ascribed to a "Fenton"?

    2Vermont is right: this "oh well" response to a false attribution that is paraded around here as a target for contempt as an example of heretical or quasi-heretical laxity regarding EENS is pathetic.
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Lol...more lies.
    The purpose of this thread is to discuss heresy, not Fr Cekada, which you put up as a strawman, and are now defending.  No one is attacking Fr Cekada; we are attacking error.

    Online 2Vermont

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  • Why would Fr. Cekada "refute" a statement in an article ascribed to a "Fenton"?

    2Vermont is right: this "oh well" response to a false attribution that is paraded around here as a target for contempt as an example of heretical or quasi-heretical laxity regarding EENS is pathetic.
    Thank you DR.  Have a blessed Sunday!

    Online 2Vermont

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  • The purpose of this thread is to discuss heresy, not Fr Cekada, which you put up as a strawman, and are now defending.  No one is attacking Fr Cekada; we are attacking error.
    Then it should be no problem to retract the false attribution.  But, for some reason, it is.