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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?  (Read 6648 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2021, 07:46:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: MyrnaM on March 12, 2021, 08:16:04 PM
    My make-believe story; you either misread or wanted to misread!  The story clearly speaks of two learning the faith.  One received the Sacrament, the other only the desire through no fault of his own was killed before the Sacrament was administered.  Who was saved Pax Vobis,  pick one:   Both or only the one who received the Sacrament or none?
    This story illustrates how the Church teaches BOD.  The Church does NOT teach BOD is a substitute for the Sacrament, as if it could even apply if death is not carried out.
    Myrna, I think you are focusing on the catechumen which St Bellarmine said would fall under BOD.  I think it is clear that catechumens are in a different category for sure.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
    « Reply #31 on: March 13, 2021, 08:26:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on March 13, 2021, 07:46:47 AM
    Myrna, I think you are focusing on the catechumen which St Bellarmine said would fall under BOD.  I think it is clear that catechumens are in a different category for sure.

    As I said, the big issue vis-a-vis ecclesiology is NOT the catechumen.  You can argue that they're part of the Visible Church "imperfectly", as St. Robert Bellarmine believed, and that an imperfect membership suffices for salvation.  Again, I don't believe that, but it someone else wanted to, I'd have no big issue.  Where I get off the BoD wagon is where Hindus in Tibet, or Great Thumb Worshippers, who have ZERO connection to the Visible Church are somehow saved.

    That's where the whole Vatican II subsistence ecclesiology comes from, where the Church "subsists" in this visible core of actual Catholics, but then extends out invisibly to include all manner of heretics, schismatics, Buddhists, and Muslims.

    I'm actually willing to lay down the hatchet with regard to Catechumens as a compromise, if only some of these Traditional Catholics who believe in BoD would exclude the non-catechumens.  Perhaps that would be more palatable to those who want to follow a St. Thomas or St Robert Bellarmine, or who believe that Trent taught BoD.  I urge them to look at all the proofs that they normally adduce for BoD and notice:

    1917 Code of Canon Law:  limited to CATECHUMENS
    Pope Pius XII General Audience:  limited to CATECHUMENS
    St. Robert Bellarmine:  limited to CATECHUMENS
    Pope Innocent II and II cases:  involved (basically) at least CATECHUMENS (with one perplexing case involving a "priest" who had not been baptized somehow)
    Patristic evidence:
    Quote
    . . . we have to admit . . . that the testimony of the Fathers, with regard to the possibility of salvation for someone outside the Church, is very weak. Certainly even the ancient Church knew that the grace of God can be found also outside the Church and even before Faith. But the view that such divine grace can lead man to his final salvation without leading him first into the visible Church, is something, at any rate, which met with very little approval in the ancient Church. For, with reference to the optimistic views on the salvation of catechumens as found in many of the Fathers, it must be noted that such a candidate for baptism was regarded in some sense or other as already ‘Christianus,’ and also that certain Fathers, such as Gregory nαzιanzen and Gregory of Nyssa deny altogether the justifying power of love or of the desire for baptism. Hence it will be impossible to speak of a consensus dogmaticus in the early Church regarding the possibility of salvation for the non-baptized, and especially for someone who is not even a catechumen. In fact, even St. Augustine, in his last (anti-pelagian) period, no longer maintained the possibility of a baptism by desire.

    So I'd be willing to take up a compromise position of conceding the possibility of salvation for Catechumens, so that we can stop arguing incessantly about BoD and focus on the real problem, the heretical ecclesiology that results from including all manner of non-Catholics in the Church.

    Our REAL battle here needs to be against the Vatican II ecclesiology and the wreckage it's causing, and BoD has been distraction from that.  So if we could all agree on a BoD, or, rather, Baptism of "firm resolution" (since "desire" is a very unhelpful term), then we could join forces against the V2 ecclesiology and fight the REAL BATTLE going on here.  I don't need to keep fighting with St. Thomas or St. Robert or St. Alphonsus.  Once we've re-established firmly the Tridentine VISIBLE CHURCH ecclesiology, then we can  revisit BoD for Catechumens at a later date.

    I ask all Traditional Catholics to join forces in battling the FUNDAMENTAL ERROR behind all of the Vatican II errors.
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
    « Reply #32 on: March 13, 2021, 09:35:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on March 13, 2021, 04:47:48 AM
    Yes, through no fault of his own, but where is God in your fantasy?

    Can you please explain Myrna, why God, after giving the believer all the grace and knowledge necessary in order to lead him right to the very font that God Himself instituted as being required for our salvation, denied the believer this requirement and did not wait another 2 minutes before taking the believer? In your story, God is either a monster, or has no say and no place whatsoever in the matter.

    Your fantasy's only possibility to supply salvation is when the Divine Providence is altogether removed from the scenario - because with it, a BOD can never happen, just as without it, the sacrament can never happen.    
    READ
    my "fantasy" and pick which one or both or none are saved, Stubborn.   Without Baptism of desire as you prefer,  is calling God a monster if this scene actually was.    See here what CMRIa says about BOD/BOB


    Moral Theology (Bk. 6):
    “But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind␅ [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”
    3. 1917 CODE OF CANON LAW On Ecclesiastical Burial (Canon 1239. 2)
    “Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized.” — The Sacred Canons
    by Rev. John A. Abbo. St.T.L., J.C.D., and Rev. Jerome D. Hannan, A.M., LL.B., S.T.D., J.C.D.
    Commentary on the Code:
    “The reason for this rule is that they are justly supposed to have met death united to Christ through Baptism of desire.”
    4. POPE INNOCENT III
    Apostolicam:
    To your inquiry we respond thus: We assert without hesitation (on the authority of the holy Fathers Augustine and Ambrose) that the priest whom you indicated (in your letter) had died without the water of baptism, because he persevered in the faith of Holy Mother the Church and in the confession of the name of Christ, was freed from original sin and attained the joy of the heavenly fatherland. Read (brother) in the eighth book of Augustine’s City of God where among other things it is written, “Baptism is ministered invisibly to one whom not contempt of religion but death excludes.” Read again the book also of the blessed Ambrose concerning the death of Valentinian where he says the same thing. Therefore, to questions concerning the dead, you should hold the opinions of the learned Fathers, and in your church you should join in prayers and you should have sacrifices offered to God for the priest mentioned (Denzinger 388).
    Debitum pastoralis officii, August 28, 1206:
    You have, to be sure, intimated that a certain Jew, when at the point of death, since he lived only among Jҽωs, immersed himself in water while saying: “I baptize myself in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.”
    We respond that, since there should be a distinction between the one baptizing and the one baptized, as is clearly gathered from the words of the Lord, when He says to the Apostles: “Go baptize all nations in the name etc.” (cf. Matt. 28:19), the Jew mentioned must be baptized again by another, that it may be shown that he who is baptized is one person, and he who baptizes another… If, however, such a one had died immєdιαtely, he would have rushed off to his heavenly home without delay because of the faith of the sacrament, although not because of the sacrament of faith (Denzinger 413).

    BAPTISM of Desire




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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
    « Reply #33 on: March 13, 2021, 09:51:43 AM »
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    • Who here argues that any person who hates Catholicism receives BOD, and thinks nothing else is necessary is saved?   Is that even possible to receive BOD without even desiring to be a member of the Church founded by Christ???

    Catholics should know that the Catholic Chuch IS CHRIST!  If one loves Christ they love His Church.  Christ is the Church there is no other.  

    Seek and you shall find.  

    Nice to see Ladislaus you are softening toward the PROPER Definition of BOD. 
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
    « Reply #34 on: March 13, 2021, 12:00:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: MyrnaM on March 13, 2021, 09:35:32 AM
    READ
    my "fantasy" and pick which one or both or none are saved, Stubborn.   Without Baptism of desire as you prefer,  is calling God a monster if this scene actually was.    See here what CMRIa says about BOD/BOB
    God provided the one with the sacrament a microsecond before death, so I would say that he is the only one who was able to  attain salvation. BOB and a BOD are essentially the same thing since the BOB guy necessarily desires baptism, but as far as we know, dies without it.

    Now in your own words, can you please explain Myrna, why God, after giving the believer all the grace and knowledge necessary in order to lead him right to the very font that God Himself instituted as being required for our salvation, denied the believer this requirement and did not wait another 2 minutes before taking the believer?

    If you are incapable of answering in your own words, simply say so.

    Your story is a shining example, explicitly demonstrating two things at the same time, first, how *with* Divine Providence a BOD can never happen, (by the providence of God the doubter was baptized), and second, *without* God's Providence, the sacrament can never happen (as was the case of the believer).  


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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
    « Reply #35 on: March 13, 2021, 12:32:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: MyrnaM on March 13, 2021, 09:51:43 AM
    Nice to see Ladislaus you are softening toward the PROPER Definition of BOD.

    I've always been soft of those who simply believe in BoD for catechumens and are not BoD zealots, as I have explained.  Of course, so far I've only run into about 2-3 of these.  I have always tried to shift the debate toward whether or not "Hindus in Tibet" and such can be saved and therefore in the Church.  I welcomed a poster named Arvinger as an ally on this issue even though he believed in BoD for catechumens ... since he always fought to uphold Traditional ecclesiology, rather than undermining it at every turn.

    As I told him, if you want to follow the Church Doctors on this issue, then what can I say?  Even if I respectfully disagree with them, I can't really fault someone in preferring the opinions of St. Thomas, St. Robert, and St. Alphonsus.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
    « Reply #36 on: March 13, 2021, 12:53:59 PM »
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    • Quote
    My make-believe story; you either misread or wanted to misread!  The story clearly speaks of two learning the faith.  One received the Sacrament,
    Great.  The first person used his free will to accept the actual graces necessary to embrace the Faith and Baptism.
    .

    Quote
    the other only the desire through no fault of his own was killed before the Sacrament was administered.
    Ha, ha.  Except for ѕυιcιdє and stupidity (i.e. taking a selfie on the edge of a cliff, slipping and falling to one's death accidentally), everyone dies "through no fault of his own".
    .
    Who allowed person #2 to die before reception of Baptism?  God.
    Who knew, from all eternity, when person #2 was going to die?  God.
    Who is the only person who can read hearts, and who truly knows if person #2 desired to be baptized?  God.
    Can you, me or anyone swear on a bible and say we knew, with 100% clarity, that person #2 wanted to be baptized?  No.
    Therefore, who stopped person #2's life, being able to read his heart, and did so with full, complete, absolute knowledge?  God.
    .
    Are you questioning God's motives and knowledge?  Yes.
    Should you repent of this sin?  Yes.
    Should you beg for a greater faith in God's all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving Providential care and His all-encompassing desire that all men be saved?  Yes x 1,000,000.
    .

    Quote
    Who was saved Pax Vobis,  pick one:   Both or only the one who received the Sacrament or none?

    Who was saved?  I have no idea.  I can't read hearts.  All I know is who was baptized at the time of death.  Person 1 was baptized, so they had the opportunity to be saved.  Person 2 was not baptized, so they were definitely not saved.  They could have made it to Limbo and had a natural happiness.  Or, they were damned for privately rejecting baptism; only God knows.
    .
    Who was a member of the Church when they died?  Person 1 only.
    .

    Quote
    This story illustrates how the Church teaches BOD.  The Church does NOT teach BOD is a substitute for the Sacrament, as if it could even apply if death is not carried out.

    This story illustrates your own, silly, theological fantasy.  There is no catechism, book, council, papal docuмent or manual which explains the answer to your story.  If you presented your story to 100 other pro-BOD friends, you would get 100 different answers because nothing about BOD details are explained anywhere.  So there's no uniform agreement on what it is, or how it works.  If there was, then you wouldn't have to make up a story; you could just quote pages from a church-approved book.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
    « Reply #37 on: March 13, 2021, 01:03:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 13, 2021, 12:32:06 PM
    I welcomed a poster named Arvinger as an ally on this issue even though he believed in BoD for catechumens ... since he always fought to uphold Traditional ecclesiology, rather than undermining it at every turn.
    In all of my life I only have met one like your Arvinger. AND I have never met ONE that started a BOD thread that was not an implicit faither, no matter how many times they denied it. Their mindset is that of Fr. Cekada (read below), and because of that mindset, BOD of the catechumen is not enough because it only involves, well,  a catechumen, that's nothing, they must include all "nice" people in all religions. There is not ONE real Thomist/ Ligouri/Bellarmie BODer on CI that posts in these threads. An example of a false BODer is XavierSem, who has been whittled down to saying that God can convert a Muslim, Hindu Buddhist etc. by a miracle, by revealing Himself to the non-Catholic one microsecond before he dies. That is XavierSem's  way of saving the non-catechumen, he's just winging it, it has nothing to do with St. Thomas or any saint.

    Quote
    The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”



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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
    « Reply #38 on: March 13, 2021, 01:32:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on March 13, 2021, 01:03:52 PM
    The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”
    Does anyone have access to the original source for this quote?  I see it copied and pasted a lot but I've never seen the original source.  I tried googling for it, but came up emptyhanded (except for other places where the quote is provided by itself).
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
    « Reply #39 on: March 13, 2021, 02:09:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on March 13, 2021, 12:00:34 PM


    Now in your own words, can you please explain Myrna, why God, after giving the believer all the grace and knowledge necessary in order to lead him right to the very font that God Himself instituted as being required for our salvation, denied the believer this requirement and did not wait another 2 minutes before taking the believer?



    Your story is a shining example, explicitly demonstrating two things at the same time, first, how *with* Divine Providence a BOD can never happen, (by the providence of God the doubter was baptized), and second, *without* God's Providence, the sacrament can never happen (as was the case of the believer).  
    It wasn't necessary because God knew the Believer would be saved via BOD anyway, and also God wanted you Stubborn to think about the situation presented, which is what you did!  
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    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
    « Reply #40 on: March 13, 2021, 02:16:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 13, 2021, 12:53:59 PM

    Who allowed person #2 to die before reception of Baptism?  God.
    Who knew, from all eternity, when person #2 was going to die?  God.
    Who is the only person who can read hearts, and who truly knows if person #2 desired to be baptized?  God.
    Can you, me or anyone swear on a bible and say we knew, with 100% clarity, that person #2 wanted to be baptized?  No.
    Therefore, who stopped person #2's life, being able to read his heart, and did so with full, complete, absolute knowledge?  God.
    .
    Are you questioning God's motives and knowledge?  Yes.
    Should you repent of this sin?  Yes.
    Should you beg for a greater faith in God's all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving Providential care and His all-encompassing desire that all men be saved?  Yes x 1,000,000.
    .

    Who was saved?  I have no idea.  I can't read hearts.  All I know is who was baptized at the time of death.  Person 1 was baptized, so they had the opportunity to be saved.  Person 2 was not baptized, so they were definitely not saved.  They could have made it to Limbo and had a natural happiness.  Or, they were damned for privately rejecting baptism; only God knows.
    .
    You just said, "You have no idea, so why go back on your word and say "Person 2 was not baptized, so they were definitely not saved. 
    My point in my post a while ago, titled: In God's Eyes!  That post of mine holds the answer to your other who questions above
    In God's Eyes
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
    « Reply #41 on: March 13, 2021, 03:00:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: MyrnaM on March 13, 2021, 02:09:02 PM
    It wasn't necessary because God knew the Believer would be saved via BOD anyway, and also God wanted you Stubborn to think about the situation presented, which is what you did!  
    I thought - poor Myrna, she still doesn't get it.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
    « Reply #42 on: March 13, 2021, 03:31:18 PM »
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    • Quote
    You just said, "You have no idea, so why go back on your word and say "Person 2 was not baptized, so they were definitely not saved.
    Person 1 had the chance to salvation because they were saved.  Can I say they were DEFINITELY saved, just because they were baptized?  No.  They could have been baptized, sinned mentally and been lost.  Only God knows (of the baptized) who is saved.
    .
    All I can say is who IS NOT SAVED, which is person #2.  I know they aren't saved because of church doctrine.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
    « Reply #43 on: March 13, 2021, 03:34:09 PM »
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    • Quote
    Myrna said:  ...the Believer would be saved via BOD

    .

    Quote
    Myrna also said:  The Church does NOT teach BOD is a substitute for the Sacrament..

    .
    .
    Vortex of confusion, indeed!!
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
    « Reply #44 on: March 13, 2021, 04:12:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on March 13, 2021, 01:32:07 PM
    Does anyone have access to the original source for this quote?  I see it copied and pasted a lot but I've never seen the original source.  I tried googling for it, but came up emptyhanded (except for other places where the quote is provided by itself).
    The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”

    This article/quote is reproduced on MHFM:
    https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholic/heretical-traditional-priests-sspv-salvation/#.YE01LJ1KiK8

    So, this article/specific quote (from The Roman Catholic, SSPV, Fall 2003 issue) was apparently written by Fr Fenton, not Fr Cekada.  In addition, Fr Cekada left the SSPV in 1989, so he couldn't have possibly written this article for the SSPV in 2003.  I knew something was off about this accusation.

    Granted, I am sure that some would still disagree with Fr Cekada's true position on BOD, but he NEVER said/wrote what has been attributed to him.  

    It's time to set the record straight.  
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