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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?  (Read 8989 times)

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Offline Motorede

Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2021, 05:24:16 PM »
Quote from: MyrnaM on March 12, 2021, 03:32:07 PM
I try to stay away from BOD/BOB not because I don't believe this teaching or doubt it, it makes perfect sense to me.  It does not make sense to deny it.

Without using all the theological terms, my understanding is explained in this little story I made up.  

+++

Oh, Dear, exclaimed St. Peter at the gate, one day!
What is the matter?  His angel spoke.
Those evils souls are at it again, killing those who seek the Truth.
See, those two coming were the latest; they were getting ready for baptism, but that one on the left was having doubts, do I or don't I want to live this way? He was not convinced (a doubter).  He was what we call a convert that is thinking ( well maybe they're right and just in case I'll try) not wanting to take a chance my eternity. A healthy fear in other words.

From the beginning of their journey, his friend the Believer talked/walked with God. Prayed daily for all his family and friends. Never neglecting
Our Lady, teaching and praying the rosary while loving especially the Sorrowful mysteries.  Finally, the day has come for the two of them to be Baptised, according to the priest.


Now, this!  The persecutors are sneaking up right behind them and
with evil intent.  The weaker of the two, having just received the pouring of water while at the same time hearing the saving words; suddenly — like that both were killed instantly by God's enemies!  Killed before the Believer had a chance for the water.


St. Peter says to his angel, strange that some below think the Believer should go to hell. (or am I wrong here)  St.Peter continues ...  They fail to realize that the sacraments and the sacrifice of the altar, being Christ's own actions, must be held to be capable in themselves of conveying and dispensing grace from the divine Head to the members of the Mystical Body.


Now, all that talk about the infidels is another situation!  And/Or souls that know what they must do, but keep putting it on the back burner. Banking on desire only!    Only God can judge them according to His opportunities He gave them for Truth.  We can in turn continue to pray for the infidels and our loved ones for more time.  

Anyway that is my take on the subject.  I also believe that all this twisting of words saying he meant this or that is meaningless since none of you know what was in the mind of whoever used words such as "or" or "and" ...

 
Poor Myrna. I had hopes for you. But after all these years of good theological debate on this subject you are still doing imaginary "theology" with your made-up story. Yes. It is best you stay away from this topic, as you say. 
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Offline MyrnaM

Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2021, 05:29:31 PM »


Thanks for the wasted cricket words that just made noise,  you could have at least answered who was saved in my made up story, who was not saved, your opinion would have been nice or did I confuse you with simplicity?
  
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Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2021, 06:51:18 PM »

Quote
St. Peter says to his angel, strange that some below think the Believer should go to hell. (or am I wrong here)  St.Peter continues ...  They fail to realize that the sacraments and the sacrifice of the altar, being Christ's own actions, must be held to be capable in themselves of conveying and dispensing grace from the divine Head to the members of the Mystical Body.

In your make-believe fantasy, the "believer" wasn't really a believer, because they didn't go through with it.  Had they cooperated with actual grace (which God always sufficiently provides) then their human doubts would've been put aside.  But some part of their soul rejected the actual graces, and this is why they didn't get baptized. 
.
There is no contradiction.  Those that cooperate with grace, however weak their human nature is, will not be conquered.  A true believer will cooperate with grace.  Your example denies the power of grace.  Your example ignores free will.  Your example is anti-catholic.
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Offline MyrnaM

Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2021, 08:16:04 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 12, 2021, 06:51:18 PM
In your make-believe fantasy, the "believer" wasn't really a believer, because they didn't go through with it.  Had they cooperated with actual grace (which God always sufficiently provides) then their human doubts would've been put aside.  But some part of their soul rejected the actual graces, and this is why they didn't get baptized.  
.
There is no contradiction.  Those that cooperate with grace, however weak their human nature is, will not be conquered.  A true believer will cooperate with grace.  Your example denies the power of grace.  Your example ignores free will.  Your example is anti-catholic.
My make-believe story; you either misread or wanted to misread!  The story clearly speaks of two learning the faith.  One received the Sacrament, the other only the desire through no fault of his own was killed before the Sacrament was administered.  Who was saved Pax Vobis,  pick one:   Both or only the one who received the Sacrament or none?
This story illustrates how the Church teaches BOD.  The Church does NOT teach BOD is a substitute for the Sacrament, as if it could even apply if death is not carried out. 

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Online Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2021, 04:47:48 AM »
Quote from: MyrnaM on March 12, 2021, 08:16:04 PM
My make-believe story; you either misread or wanted to misread!  The story clearly speaks of two learning the faith.  One received the Sacrament, the other only the desire through no fault of his own was killed before the Sacrament was administered.  Who was saved Pax Vobis,  pick one:   Both or only the one who received the Sacrament or none?
This story illustrates how the Church teaches BOD.  The Church does NOT teach BOD is a substitute for the Sacrament, as if it could even apply if death is not carried out.
Yes, through no fault of his own, but where is God in your fantasy?

Can you please explain Myrna, why God, after giving the believer all the grace and knowledge necessary in order to lead him right to the very font that God Himself instituted as being required for our salvation, denied the believer this requirement and did not wait another 2 minutes before taking the believer? In your story, God is either a monster, or has no say and no place whatsoever in the matter.

Your fantasy's only possibility to supply salvation is when the Divine Providence is altogether removed from the scenario - because with it, a BOD can never happen, just as without it, the sacrament can never happen.    
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