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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?  (Read 8993 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
I agree with this.  It's like with my mother.  I pray daily that she get baptized before her death.  I believe that if she desires it, He will give that opportunity.  Most likely me.

I'll pray that she converts, and it's most likely that you'll be around to baptize her. 

Offline JoeZ

  • Supporter
Why would you think that God is mean if He doesn't wait the amount of time you think He needs to wait for someone?  Or do you think God has to break his own rules in order to save people?  Circuмstances cannot possibly impede God from getting someone true baptism if they want it. It certainly isn't harder for God to provide baptism than baptism of desire.  If a person wants baptism and tries to get there, they get it.  If someone dies without it, God knew what He was doing and no one can say He is unmerciful.  
My attempt was to show the absurdity of the implicit desire type of BOD by demonstrating one of its many flaws. I am asking rhetorically, why can the Tibetan save himself but not assist even his own children? I don't think God is mean, proponents of heretical BOD do.


Offline JoeZ

  • Supporter
Why do many if you heretically think that these Hindus/pagans/etc are guiltless in their ignorance about the Church?   I’ve heard multiple conversion stories where Muslims wanted to know why Christians worshipped Christ, and He appeared to them physically or in a dream and answered their questions.  Then He sent them to a Christian for further instruction.  
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These miracles are happening in the Middle East as we speak!  In our times!  And these Muslims have google and books and tv to learn about Christ.  Yet...He still performs miracles for those that want the Truth, even if they could get the Truth naturally.  
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So, in days where technology didn’t exist, when ignorant natives were on islands, or in forests, or near remote mountains, and no living Christian was within thousands of miles, we wonder how God can reach these people? Really?
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Those that invent “BOD for the ignorant” or “rewarder God” heresy, have such a low amount of Faith in God, and His goodness, His mercy, His love of each one of us, that I question if they were ever really Catholic.  ...It’s borderline blasphemy.  
I'm kinda confused. Do you think I was supporting implicit BOD? My questions were rhetorical, I hope people try to answer them and arrive at the only conclusion possible; the absurdity of the implicit BOD position.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter

Quote
I'm kinda confused. Do you think I was supporting implicit BOD? My questions were rhetorical, I hope people try to answer them and arrive at the only conclusion possible; the absurdity of the implicit BOD position.

Yes, sorry.  I didn't recognize your sarcasm.  You made good points.


I try to stay away from BOD/BOB not because I don't believe this teaching or doubt it, it makes perfect sense to me.  It does not make sense to deny it. 

Without using all the theological terms, my understanding is explained in this little story I made up.  

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Oh, Dear, exclaimed St. Peter at the gate, one day!
What is the matter?  His angel spoke. 
Those evils souls are at it again, killing those who seek the Truth. 
See, those two coming were the latest; they were getting ready for baptism, but that one on the left was having doubts, do I or don't I want to live this way? He was not convinced (a doubter).  He was what we call a convert that is thinking ( well maybe they're right and just in case I'll try) not wanting to take a chance my eternity. A healthy fear in other words.

From the beginning of their journey, his friend the Believer talked/walked with God. Prayed daily for all his family and friends. Never neglecting 
Our Lady, teaching and praying the rosary while loving especially the Sorrowful mysteries.  Finally, the day has come for the two of them to be Baptised, according to the priest. 


Now, this!  The persecutors are sneaking up right behind them and
with evil intent.  The weaker of the two, having just received the pouring of water while at the same time hearing the saving words; suddenly — like that both were killed instantly by God's enemies!  Killed before the Believer had a chance for the water. 


St. Peter says to his angel, strange that some below think the Believer should go to hell. (or am I wrong here)  St.Peter continues ...  They fail to realize that the sacraments and the sacrifice of the altar, being Christ's own actions, must be held to be capable in themselves of conveying and dispensing grace from the divine Head to the members of the Mystical Body.


Now, all that talk about the infidels is another situation!  And/Or souls that know what they must do, but keep putting it on the back burner. Banking on desire only!    Only God can judge them according to His opportunities He gave them for Truth.  We can in turn continue to pray for the infidels and our loved ones for more time.  

Anyway that is my take on the subject.  I also believe that all this twisting of words saying he meant this or that is meaningless since none of you know what was in the mind of whoever used words such as "or" or "and" ...