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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?  (Read 9010 times)

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Online Stubborn

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Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD? Heck no! A BOD is guaranteed to work "even though he has never even heard of the existence of the Sacrament of Baptism" - as the scan from this catechism teaches, see item (4). 

Offline Pax Vobis

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How does BOD give grace to a pagan/hindu/moslem/protestant who HATES catholicism (and has no desire to obey the pope), but only "desires God"?  This is where the "rewarder God" heresy pits Catholicism vs God, which is an abominable error.


How does BOD give grace to a pagan/hindu/moslem/protestant who HATES catholicism (and has no desire to obey the pope), but only "desires God"?  This is where the "rewarder God" heresy pits Catholicism vs God, which is an abominable error.
I mean, I'm guessing Lefebvre had in mind Hindus/Muslims/Prots who had never heard of Catholicism or, at most, had heard some grotesque mischaracterization of it.  I seriously doubt he or any other trad believes that anyone who understands Catholicism and still rejects it has any hope of salvation via "sincerity".

Offline Ladislaus

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How does BOD give grace to a pagan/hindu/moslem/protestant who HATES catholicism (and has no desire to obey the pope), but only "desires God"?  This is where the "rewarder God" heresy pits Catholicism vs God, which is an abominable error.

Yes, even Xavier cited a source which stated that those who despise the Sacrament cannot receive BoD.  But many if not most BoDers would not exclude even these from the possibility of receiving BoD.

But what about those who simply don't have faith in it?

I'm asking for a BoDer to explain the metaphysical operation of a Sacrament through space and time to act on someone who's not even aware of its existence  and doesn't believe in it.

It's very much akin to Rahner's "αnσnymσus Christian" theory.

Yes, even Xavier cited a source which stated that those who despise the Sacrament cannot receive BoD.  But many if not most BoDers would not exclude even these from the possibility of receiving BoD.

But what about those who simply don't have faith in it?

I'm asking for a BoDer to explain the metaphysical operation of a Sacrament through space and time to act on someone who's not even aware of its existence  and doesn't believe in it.

It's very much akin to Rahner's "αnσnymσus Christian" theory.
Yes indeed. We are all imbued with the supernatural existential, that uncreated grace that apparently draws us closer to God. 
Everything needed for man to attain Heaven has been fulfilled through the Incarnation. For Rahner, the Passion, Death and Resurrection become nothing more than an aferthought.
What Rahner was trying to take the IDEA of a saviour, one who significant for salvation, and marry it with the concrete person who is Jesus Christ as revealed through Holy Writ and Tradition. He failed. Rahner's Christ is not THE CHRIST, when you get down to the dirty nitty gritty details.
We are all saved, whether we want to be or not, because God has irresistably willed it to be. There is no saying NO to God's grace in Rahner's thought.
I call this "damned to salvation."