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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?  (Read 8921 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
It works on the same principle as BOD properly taught is my understanding.
Rare as is BOD these days but effective when properly given.  Meaning both the recipient is in need because death is imminent - both are in need of the Sacrament because of either mortal sin or original sin - both MUST BE GRACED WITH PERFECT LOVE - BOTH UNDERSTANDS THAT the SACRAMENT is required at a later time if death did not occur.

I guess I still don't understand.  In the case of General Absolution, the Sacrament is still being conferred in re, with the only difference being that the penitent must still confess any unconfessed mortal sins at the next possible occasion.  It's just as if a penitent accidentally forgot to mention some sin.  In that case, the Sacrament still happens, and the person is restored to grace, even though not all sins were confessed.  Or in the case of a dying person who can't talk.  In all those situations, the Sacrament is still happening.  Necessity only serves to defer the obligation of confessing every sin right there and then.  And, of course, if the priest pronounced a general absolution, and there was a mixed group, the Sacrament would only be effective toward those who were Catholics and who had the right dispositions for Confession at the time the words were pronounced.


I guess I still don't understand.  In the case of General Absolution, the Sacrament is still being conferred in re, with the only difference being that the penitent must still confess any unconfessed mortal sins at the next possible occasion.  It's just as if a penitent accidentally forgot to mention some sin.  In that case, the Sacrament still happens, and the person is restored to grace, even though not all sins were confessed.  Or in the case of a dying person who can't talk.  In all those situations, the Sacrament is still happening.  Necessity only serves to defer the obligation of confessing every sin right there and then.  And, of course, if the priest pronounced a general absolution, and there was a mixed group, the Sacrament would only be effective toward those who were Catholics and who had the right dispositions for Confession at the time the words were pronounced.

That thought also came to my mind; however, the penitent must still go to the actual SACRAMENT if they survived, which begs the question; was it the sacrament to the fullest? Just as BOD is not a Sacrament, it suffices if death occurs, as does General absolution.  The Principle is the same I believe.


Thank you for your reply, now let's wait and see what Pax comes up with since his nominal response indicates the difference is explained in Trent.


The happening of the Sacrament/or desire for it is limited, (Speaking of General absolution) i.e. some tragedy as the sinking of the Titanic. Of course would only apply to Catholics, not infidels who might have been in said group.  


God fulfills, without the need for BOD because nothing is impossible with God.  Suggesting that God must break the water and Holy Spirit rule because someone might die on Him is absurd.  
ABSOLUTELY!

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
That thought also came to my mind; however, the penitent must still go to the actual SACRAMENT if they survived, which begs the question; was it the sacrament to the fullest?

Well, as I said, it's similar to the scenario where a penitent perhaps forgot to mention a mortal sin (not deliberately withholding).  There's a valid absolution, so the Sacrament was in fact confected.  So I think this is not quite the same thing as BoD.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Quote
That thought also came to my mind; however, the penitent must still go to the actual SACRAMENT if they survived, which begs the question; was it the sacrament to the fullest? Just as BOD is not a Sacrament, it suffices if death occurs,

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Trent does not say, teach or imply that a BOD'er who dies before reception of ACTUAL baptism, is saved.  Trent only says that those who vow to receive baptism, can get a "head start" on being in a state of grace.  Further, Trent says that the SACRAMENT is necessary for heaven.  BOD isn't a sacrament, so it cannot provide heaven.  Forget catechisms, they are not infallible.  The pope does not write catechisms.  They can be tampered with and many have been proven to have deliberate mis-translations.
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God does not create rules/doctrine in order to break them.  This would be a destruction if His integrity, authority and respect.  “Oh what kind of God makes rules that can’t be followed and He has to break them?”, pagans would say.  It would destroy the fabric of Catholicism.  It would destroy our respect for God.
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This also applies to BOD.  The graces of justification ONLY work for those who vow/promise to receive the sacrament.  Those that 1) are unable to, or 2) made an insincere promise do NOT get the graces.  
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Those that die before reception of the sacrament, we can (and must) say that 1) they were not sincere or 2) God worked a miracle to provide water baptism that we didn’t see or weren’t there.
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To say that a person dies before baptism and goes to heave due to BOD is heresy and accuses God of changing the rules.  It accuses God of lying to us, and makes doctrine arbitrary because God changes whatever, whenever.
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The proper catholic explanation is that God created the rules of the sacraments.  God is unchanging and eternal, so His rules for grace and holiness are unchanging and eternal.  If one can not fulfill the rules humanly, God will work a miracle to fulfill the rules.  He does not suspend or alter the rules.  In a sense, He’s not allowed.  He cannot deceive.  
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This is why those who try to explain BOD outside of the rules are utterly confused and never agree.  Because anything not of God leads to confusion.