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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire Advocates: Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD?  (Read 6607 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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As started on another thread, I believe this deserves one of its own.

We know that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation.  I agree that this does not exclude Baptism of Desire per se, since the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary (a sine qua non) for Baptism of Desire.

In order to avoid heresy, we must maintain that the Sacrament of Baptism operates through the votum, as the instrumental cause of justification.

How can the Sacrament of Baptism "work" on the Hindu in Tibet?

How, moreover, can it "work" its effects on an unbaptized Christian who doesn't even believe in Baptism?

What is this magical force of Baptism that somehow works without even the subject's knowledge to justify souls?

This is the theory of "αnσnymσus Baptism," where someone receives Baptism in voto without their even knowing about Baptism.

Please explain the metaphysics of how Baptism operates on souls.  This reminds me of the scientific debate about gravity, where scientists have absolutely no idea how gravity can "act at a distance".  How can Baptism "act" on souls at a distance, even when the soul doesn't know about it or believe in it?


Offline Ladislaus

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  • To claim that the subjective dispositions of the recipient effect the justification, rather than the Sacrament itself, is Pelagian heresy.

    To say that BoD is an ex opere operantis phenomenon is in fact Pelagianism.

    PS -- THAT is why St. Augustine forcefully rejected BoD after battling with the Pelagians.


    Offline Ladislaus

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  • So how does the Sacrament effect justification ex opere operato in anyone who doesn't believe in the Sacrament?

    How, for that matter, does it effect justification even in someone who DOES believe in it?

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • Ludwig Ott:  "Baptism of desire works ex opere operantis."

    This basically means that recipients of BoD effect their own justification.  Pelagianism.  St. Augustine realized this.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • It's funny that with a "defined dogma" like Baptism of Desire that there's no answer for how it works and what the conditions for it are, whether faith in the Sacrament is required or whether the Sacrament can reach through space and time and somehow magically wash those Hindus in Tibet of their sins.


    Offline Stubborn

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  • Is faith in the Sacrament required for BoD? Heck no! A BOD is guaranteed to work "even though he has never even heard of the existence of the Sacrament of Baptism" - as the scan from this catechism teaches, see item (4). 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • How does BOD give grace to a pagan/hindu/moslem/protestant who HATES catholicism (and has no desire to obey the pope), but only "desires God"?  This is where the "rewarder God" heresy pits Catholicism vs God, which is an abominable error.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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  • How does BOD give grace to a pagan/hindu/moslem/protestant who HATES catholicism (and has no desire to obey the pope), but only "desires God"?  This is where the "rewarder God" heresy pits Catholicism vs God, which is an abominable error.
    I mean, I'm guessing Lefebvre had in mind Hindus/Muslims/Prots who had never heard of Catholicism or, at most, had heard some grotesque mischaracterization of it.  I seriously doubt he or any other trad believes that anyone who understands Catholicism and still rejects it has any hope of salvation via "sincerity".


    Offline Ladislaus

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  • How does BOD give grace to a pagan/hindu/moslem/protestant who HATES catholicism (and has no desire to obey the pope), but only "desires God"?  This is where the "rewarder God" heresy pits Catholicism vs God, which is an abominable error.

    Yes, even Xavier cited a source which stated that those who despise the Sacrament cannot receive BoD.  But many if not most BoDers would not exclude even these from the possibility of receiving BoD.

    But what about those who simply don't have faith in it?

    I'm asking for a BoDer to explain the metaphysical operation of a Sacrament through space and time to act on someone who's not even aware of its existence  and doesn't believe in it.

    It's very much akin to Rahner's "αnσnymσus Christian" theory.

    Offline Kazimierz

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  • Yes, even Xavier cited a source which stated that those who despise the Sacrament cannot receive BoD.  But many if not most BoDers would not exclude even these from the possibility of receiving BoD.

    But what about those who simply don't have faith in it?

    I'm asking for a BoDer to explain the metaphysical operation of a Sacrament through space and time to act on someone who's not even aware of its existence  and doesn't believe in it.

    It's very much akin to Rahner's "αnσnymσus Christian" theory.
    Yes indeed. We are all imbued with the supernatural existential, that uncreated grace that apparently draws us closer to God. 
    Everything needed for man to attain Heaven has been fulfilled through the Incarnation. For Rahner, the Passion, Death and Resurrection become nothing more than an aferthought.
    What Rahner was trying to take the IDEA of a saviour, one who significant for salvation, and marry it with the concrete person who is Jesus Christ as revealed through Holy Writ and Tradition. He failed. Rahner's Christ is not THE CHRIST, when you get down to the dirty nitty gritty details.
    We are all saved, whether we want to be or not, because God has irresistably willed it to be. There is no saying NO to God's grace in Rahner's thought.
    I call this "damned to salvation." 
    Da pacem Domine in diebus nostris
    Qui non est alius
    Qui pugnet pro nobis
    Nisi  tu Deus noster

    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • Quote
    I'm guessing Lefebvre had in mind Hindus/Muslims/Prots who had never heard of Catholicism or, at most, had heard some grotesque mischaracterization of it.
    Ok, but Trent, St Thomas, St Augustine and St Alphonsus all agree that BOD would not apply to these.  You have to 1) know what baptism is, and 2) properly desire it (and by extension, the whole catholic church).


    Offline Ladislaus

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  • So no one knows ... what BoD is and how it works?  That's rather unusual for a defined dogma.

    I'm sure that Baptism is right now saving some Hindu in Tibet, who will shortly be entering the Beatific Vision.

    Offline JoeZ

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  • If the answer to the OP is no because the desire to be baptized is only implicit then consider how cruel God is. What recourse does the implicitly justified Tibetan have toward helping his fellows? How does the Tibetan pass on to his children the necessities for salvation when he doesn't even know that he is damned? What consoles him as he digs his dying infant's grave?

    Questions like these pop up in this "vortex of confusion" created in this debate.
    Pray the Holy Rosary.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • The use of the word “implicit” is grossly wrong.  When modernist heretics use the phrase “implicit faith”, they go on to describe a situation where an ignorant person doesn’t know something about the Church.  But something that is implicit is 100% understood (just not openly expressed).  This is why St Alphonsus’ use of implicit faith is orthodox.  He was speaking of a catechumen who was learning the faith but who just hadn’t formally asked to be baptized.  But such a one a) knew exactly what baptism was, b) knew what it meant to be a member of the Church, and c) by their actions in learning and asking questions of the Faith, was passively implying they wanted to join the Faith.  In other words, their actions were speaking in place of their words.  
    .
    That’s what implied means.  A “100% understanding” is part of the meaning of the word. 
    .
    What modernist heretics have done is apply V2’s “subsists in” theological error of Christianity to baptismal faith.  In the former, they have erroneously made belief in any type of Christianity salvific.  In the latter, they have erroneously made desire for any type of “god” or “truth” a baptism.  Both of these errors are necessary for the freemasonic one-world Church to be born. 

    Offline Tradman

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  • If the answer to the OP is no because the desire to be baptized is only implicit then consider how cruel God is. What recourse does the implicitly justified Tibetan have toward helping his fellows? How does the Tibetan pass on to his children the necessities for salvation when he doesn't even know that he is damned? What consoles him as he digs his dying infant's grave?

    Questions like these pop up in this "vortex of confusion" created in this debate.
    Why would you think that God is mean if He doesn't wait the amount of time you think He needs to wait for someone?  Or do you think God has to break his own rules in order to save people?  Circuмstances cannot possibly impede God from getting someone true baptism if they want it. It certainly isn't harder for God to provide baptism than baptism of desire.  If a person wants baptism and tries to get there, they get it.  If someone dies without it, God knew what He was doing and no one can say He is unmerciful.