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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire  (Read 6880 times)

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Offline Capt McQuigg

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Baptism of Desire
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2012, 04:02:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat

    Or, according to Evaristo's 'new and improved Sister Lucy' of October 11th, 1993,
    'conversion' is now the freedom to choose your own path, IOW a Muslim can be
    a better Muslim and a Hindu a better Hindu. Which, BTW, is the logical extension
    of the erroneous thought of the pagan, above, 'Well, as soon as I'm baptized then
    I need to start obeying all these laws and regulations?' What's the incentive to
    convert and follow the Faith when your new 'ace in the hole' is to just have a
    vague longing for Baptism the moment you die?

    The thing that irks me about so-called baptism of desire is the damage it does, or rather, has the potential of doing, to the missionary effort worldwide.


    Neil,

    Is the Sr Lucy of 1993 quoted as saying this?  That conversion is the freedom to choose your own path?  I have yet to dive into all the Fatima literature out there.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #16 on: October 10, 2012, 04:19:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Quote from: Neil Obstat

    Or, according to Evaristo's 'new and improved Sister Lucy' of October 11th, 1993,
    'conversion' is now the freedom to choose your own path, IOW a Muslim can be
    a better Muslim and a Hindu a better Hindu. Which, BTW, is the logical extension
    of the erroneous thought of the pagan, above, 'Well, as soon as I'm baptized then
    I need to start obeying all these laws and regulations?' What's the incentive to
    convert and follow the Faith when your new 'ace in the hole' is to just have a
    vague longing for Baptism the moment you die?

    The thing that irks me about so-called baptism of desire is the damage it does, or rather, has the potential of doing, to the missionary effort worldwide.


    Neil,

    Is the Sr Lucy of 1993 quoted as saying this?  That conversion is the freedom to choose your own path?  I have yet to dive into all the Fatima literature out there.



    You should try this other thread:

    Welcome-to-October-Eleventh-the-NewChurchNewYear
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.


    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #17 on: October 10, 2012, 07:31:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Hermenegild
    The point is if you say that it is Church teaching that a soul can be saved due to 'impossibilities' then why object to Vatican II? Why limit and restrict the concept to 'rare exceptions'.


    Vatican II says that people can be saved BY their false religions. That is not at all what BOD is. Rather, BOD means that people who die with the desire to be baptized die as members of the Church.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline Deliveringit

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #18 on: October 10, 2012, 08:57:10 PM »
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  • There is no such teaching by any true Pope and/or Council which declared and defined that baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood is a truth. Instead, the Popes and Councils infallibly taught that one can have hope of receiving salvation only if that person has first received the "sacrament" of baptism.

    NOTE: The "sacrament" of baptism is only Water Baptism

    Rome admits that Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood are not the "sacrament" of baptism. Therefore, one must be Water Baptized to get into Heaven. This is Catholic dogmatic truth.


    Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood are false teachings that today's modernists try to use to claim non-Catholics can receive salvation.

    Offline Deliveringit

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #19 on: October 10, 2012, 08:59:42 PM »
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  • Also, I believe all babies get into Heaven because God sends angels and saints to water baptize them or God water baptizes the babies himself.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #20 on: October 12, 2012, 09:59:44 AM »
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  • Quote from: Hermenegild
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    BOD means that people who die with the desire to be baptized die as members of the Church.


    If desire alone is sufficient then all men or nearly all men are saved. Their desire puts them inside the Church.


    It is interesting that many heresies are the over-reaction to other heresies.

    For instance on one side you have universal salvationism and as a reaction to that you have the idea that not a single person in the history of the world was saved unless he was baptized with water.  The teach that this can be done in a mystical way by some angel or Christ Himself yet they deny that God can give the effect of water batism in a mystical way without physically pouring water on anyone's head.

    It is important to distinguish that the universal salvationist teach that all can be saved by their false religions whereas the Catholic Church infallibly teaches that those, due to invincible ignorance are members are false religions, can be saved in those religions, by the Catholic Church by having, at least an implicit desire to join her and who actually join her at the moment of death through baptism of desire.

    The Church and the God she represents is not unreasonable and does not demand the impossible, neither does she condemn to eternal fire one for a "crime" one is not guilty of.

    You can put as many people in Hell as you like but thanks be to God it is not "you" those who condemn de fide all non-card carrying Catholics, but God who judges the heart and subjective will and culpability of others which cannot be judged by man.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #21 on: October 12, 2012, 10:40:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: Hermenegild
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    BOD means that people who die with the desire to be baptized die as members of the Church.


    If desire alone is sufficient then all men or nearly all men are saved. Their desire puts them inside the Church.


    I don't think you can say that all men desire to be baptized into the Catholic Church. That isn't logical reasoning.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #22 on: October 12, 2012, 01:14:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: Hermenegild
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    BOD means that people who die with the desire to be baptized die as members of the Church.


    If desire alone is sufficient then all men or nearly all men are saved. Their desire puts them inside the Church.


    I don't think you can say that all men desire to be baptized into the Catholic Church. That isn't logical reasoning.


    Remember they must be INVINCIBLY ignorant of the necessity to join the Catholic Church and have perfect charity and even then BOD is only possible, not definite.  That means not only do they not know of the necessity to join the Church.  But they cannot reasonably be expected to know it.  And they have to be of good will, TRULY trying to do what they believe God wants them to do and live their lives they way God wants them to.  I would not want to switch places with anyone in a false religion no matter how ignorant they are.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Stubborn

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #23 on: October 12, 2012, 02:21:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: Hermenegild
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    BOD means that people who die with the desire to be baptized die as members of the Church.


    If desire alone is sufficient then all men or nearly all men are saved. Their desire puts them inside the Church.


    I don't think you can say that all men desire to be baptized into the Catholic Church. That isn't logical reasoning.


    Remember they must be INVINCIBLY ignorant of the necessity to join the Catholic Church and have perfect charity and even then BOD is only possible, not definite.  That means not only do they not know of the necessity to join the Church.  But they cannot reasonably be expected to know it.  And they have to be of good will, TRULY trying to do what they believe God wants them to do and live their lives they way God wants them to.  I would not want to switch places with anyone in a false religion no matter how ignorant they are.


    When it comes to BOD, invincible ignorance should never enter the conversation.

    Whoever dies ignorant of the faith whether already baptized or not is probably ignorant of baptism and would not desire it. Additionally, because of their own ignorance, there would be no contrition for sins because they were ignorant of any need to be contrite.

    For me, it is just as impossible to believe that God withholds or does not provide the necessary elements which He created, established and made a necessity for us, as it is impossible to believe that one ignorant, nay invincibly ignorant would desire the same.    
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #24 on: October 12, 2012, 02:34:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: Hermenegild
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    BOD means that people who die with the desire to be baptized die as members of the Church.


    If desire alone is sufficient then all men or nearly all men are saved. Their desire puts them inside the Church.


    I don't think you can say that all men desire to be baptized into the Catholic Church. That isn't logical reasoning.


    Remember they must be INVINCIBLY ignorant of the necessity to join the Catholic Church and have perfect charity and even then BOD is only possible, not definite.  That means not only do they not know of the necessity to join the Church.  But they cannot reasonably be expected to know it.  And they have to be of good will, TRULY trying to do what they believe God wants them to do and live their lives they way God wants them to.  I would not want to switch places with anyone in a false religion no matter how ignorant they are.


    When it comes to BOD, invincible ignorance should never enter the conversation.

    Whoever dies ignorant of the faith whether already baptized or not is probably ignorant of baptism and would not desire it. Additionally, because of their own ignorance, there would be no contrition for sins because they were ignorant of any need to be contrite.

    For me, it is just as impossible to believe that God withholds or does not provide the necessary elements which He created, established and made a necessity for us, as it is impossible to believe that one ignorant, nay invincibly ignorant would desire the same.    


    They implicitly desire it, meaning if they realized baptism was necessary for salvation they would surely be baptized.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline ServusSpiritusSancti

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #25 on: October 12, 2012, 04:18:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Hermenegild
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    Quote from: Hermenegild
    Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
    BOD means that people who die with the desire to be baptized die as members of the Church.


    If desire alone is sufficient then all men or nearly all men are saved. Their desire puts them inside the Church.


    I don't think you can say that all men desire to be baptized into the Catholic Church. That isn't logical reasoning.


    By what basis do you restrict the concept?


    As I already said, someone who DESIRES to be baptized, but dies before they are able to, dies as a member of the Church. It does not in any way imply universal salvation.
    Please ignore ALL of my posts. I was naive during my time posting on this forum and didn’t know any better. I retract and deeply regret any and all uncharitable or erroneous statements I ever made here.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #26 on: October 12, 2012, 05:32:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: Stubborn

    When it comes to BOD, invincible ignorance should never enter the conversation.

    Whoever dies ignorant of the faith whether already baptized or not is probably ignorant of baptism and would not desire it. Additionally, because of their own ignorance, there would be no contrition for sins because they were ignorant of any need to be contrite.

    For me, it is just as impossible to believe that God withholds or does not provide the necessary elements which He created, established and made a necessity for us, as it is impossible to believe that one ignorant, nay invincibly ignorant would desire the same.    


    They implicitly desire it, meaning if they realized baptism was necessary for salvation they would surely be baptized.


    I keep wanting to say that if they realized that baptism was necessary, then they would have been baptized, but I think that thinking is presumed to be too simple.

    Seeing as how the ignorant person did not realize that baptism existed so could not have known that it was necessary, then there is no way they could desire that which he did not know existed, not even implicitly.

    What reasoning can be used to judge that the dieing person would be desiring a sacrament they never knew existed and presumably were happily ignorant of their whole life? That is not rational thinking, if anything, that is wishful thinking based on human compassion and reasoning.

    More likely, IMO, that the dieing ignorant person would be thinking of how much they are dreading death, trying to cling to life and thinking of their spouse, children, parents, job etc. thinking of whatever it is that one thinks of as their life flashes before their eyes the instant before death..............................but desiring the sacrament of baptism when they do not even know it exists? I cannot see it.

    That is one thing that I personally find impossible to accept.

    Another thing I find impossible to believe is that IF, on his death bed, the ignorant person some how actually did have a desire, let's say he is speaking, and has an explicit desire for a sacrament that he never knew about (?), and in all sincerity desired this thing he knew nothing about (?) but that he knows he needs (?), please, in all seriousness, dictate the words that the person about to die might use at such a time to express this implicit desire explicitly.

     IOW, I want to read what is presumed to be going through that ignorant person's mind as though he were speaking aloud, desiring a sacrament he does not know exists.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Nishant

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #27 on: October 13, 2012, 10:57:09 AM »
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  • Of course baptism of desire is a Catholic teaching, such that it is objectively (ironically only an inculpable ignorance of this would excuse) a mortal sin to doubt or deny it, nor has there been any theological controversy of any sort on this point in at least the last three centuries, among those qualified and approved by ecclesiastical authority to teach the Faith.

    I need hardly add the great authorities of St.Thomas, St.Alphonsus, St.Peter Canasius, St.Bernard, St.Bonaventure, Hugh of St.Victor etc who personally opposed Peter Abelard on this point. If it is not a Catholic teaching, then Catechisms, Saints, Popes, Doctors of the Church have misled and deceived us, which is outrageous.

    Baptism is Trinitarian. The three are one, so it is written in Sacred Scripture, the water, the blood and the spirit.

    Cornelius was baptised by desire at the preaching of the Prince of the Apostles. This is found in St.Augustine and St.Thomas. The good thief also, so in St.Cyprian. The Holy Innocents by blood, so in the liturgical Tradition of the Church. And the Emperor Valentian in St.Ambrose.

    Why is it you so easily believe there is an extraordinary means for the sacrament of penance, but absolutely and absurdly refuse to recognize the same for baptism, especially given that pretty much the same principle applies?

    Your reasoning is analogous to priests who would reason "We must never preach about perfect contrition, else no one would come to confession!" Ridiculous. Perfect contrition involves sorrow for one's sins out of a true love of God for his own sake, and will never lead souls to despise the sacrament. Rather, those who are genuinely contrite will seek the sacrament when this becomes possible for them, but they are nonetheless instantly restored to grace.

    It is similar with baptism of desire, which also involves a desire animated by perfect charity.

    The precise error here is believing that "God is bound to the sacraments". The truth, as St.Thomas says, is that God wills to show His power precisely by showing the opposite, that such things as the matter or even the minister are entirely dispensable for Him, and that when He deems necessary, He gives the grace of the sacraments without such intermediaries. So it is for penance, and so likewise for baptism.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #28 on: October 13, 2012, 12:33:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant

    The precise error here is believing that "God is bound to the sacraments". The truth, as St.Thomas says, is that God wills to show His power precisely by showing the opposite, that such things as the matter or even the minister are entirely dispensable for Him, and that when He deems necessary, He gives the grace of the sacraments without such intermediaries. So it is for penance, and so likewise for baptism.


    BOD is *not* de fide so therefore we are free to *not* believe it.
    The precise error is that it is we who are bound by the Sacrament, not God, yet BOD proponents judge that God grants salvation without it based on teachings of learned fathers of the Church - but it is not the universal and constant teaching and, IMO, not only can be wrong but needs to have many important contradictions answered.

    God can do anything He wants - one of the things He wanted was for us to be baptized, that is the only reason He instituted it.

    Because God is Almighty, no one who sincerely desires baptism will be denied it - this is the way the Divine Providence works. That is what the universal and constant teaching of the Church is on the doctrine of Divine Providence.

    The constant and universal - and also infallibly defined and declared teaching of the Church is that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation.  As regards Baptism, this dogma IS de fide and whoever does not believe it, without any shred of doubt whatsoever,  sins.

    I am still hoping someone will answer my question from the end of my post above, but I won't hold my breath.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Nishant

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    Baptism of Desire
    « Reply #29 on: October 13, 2012, 02:55:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    BOD is *not* de fide


    To the contrary, St.Alphonsus indeed affirms, "it is de Fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire"

    Quote
    so therefore we are free to *not* believe it.


    Well, even if the premise was true, this conclusion would not follow. All are agreed baptism of desire is at least proximate to the Faith, so the following would apply.

    Quote
    (d) Theological Note:   Proximate to faith.
    Explanation:   A doctrine all but unanimously held as revealed by God.
    Example:   Christ possessed the Beatific Vision throughout his life on earth.
    Censure attached to contradictory proposition:   Proximate to error.
    Effects of denial:   Mortal sin indirectly against faith.


    Source "On the Value of Theological Notes and the Criteria for Discerning Them by Father Sixtus Cartechini S.J. (Rome, 1951)"

    So it is a mortal sin, objectively speaking. Ignorance, of course, may excuse if it was inculpable.

    Quote
    The precise error is that it is we who are bound by the Sacrament, not God, yet BOD proponents judge that God grants salvation without it based on teachings of learned fathers of the Church - but it is not the universal and constant teaching and, IMO, not only can be wrong but needs to have many important contradictions answered.


    Well, St.Thomas in explaining the doctrine has already, as he is wont to do, mostly dismantled almost all objections that can be offered against this doctrine. It has also been explained in some depth by the Holy Office under Cardinal Ottaviani along with the express approval of Pope Pius XII.

    Now, even if you don't accept the authority of this letter, at least reading it may help you understand implicit desire for baptism better. From the questions you ask, it seems you may not have read or at least fully remembered what it said. Correct me if I am wrong. Here are some excerpts.

    Quote from: Holy Office Letter, 8. Aug. 1949
    Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.
     
    However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.

    ...

    However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.

    But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: “For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him” (Heb. 11:6).


    Quote
    Because God is Almighty, no one who sincerely desires baptism will be denied it - this is the way the Divine Providence works. That is what the universal and constant teaching of the Church is on the doctrine of Divine Providence.


    Certainly, but extraordinary means of the sacraments themselves are examples of Divine Providence in action par excellence. The matter or water is only a poor creation of God, the minister as well only a poor instrument, both can be utterly dispensed with, if God in His supreme wisdom so decides, by the sanctifying action of His Spirit alone without these ordinary means in extraordinary circuмstances.

    The Doctors of the Church, and the Church herself, tell us that He so decides. Therefore, we must regard the matter as settled.

    Quote
    The constant and universal - and also infallibly defined and declared teaching of the Church is that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation.


    Which must be understood as the Church herself understands it, and as it has always been understood, as St.Thomas explains

    "The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least, Baptism of desire; "which, with God, counts for the deed. (Augustine, Enarr. in Ps. 57)" [St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Whether a man can be saved without Baptism?]

    As to your question, I think Pope Pius XII's Encyclical Letter as well as the Holy Office's authoritative clarification should suffice. Again,

    "an implicit desire [is] so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God ... It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity." etc

    Finally, the letter sounds a warning,

    Quote
    Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged against the Church seriously bear in mind that after “Rome has spoken” they cannot be excused even by reasons of good faith. Certainly, their bond and duty of obedience toward the Church is much graver than that of those who as yet are related to the Church “only by an unconscious desire.”

    Let them realize that they are children of the Church, lovingly nourished by her with the milk of doctrine and the sacraments, and hence, having heard the clear voice of their Mother, they cannot be excused from culpable ignorance, and therefore to them apply without any restriction that principle: submission to the Catholic Church and to the Sovereign Pontiff is required as necessary for salvation.