Author Topic: Baptism of Desire.. (Read 10990 times)

Daegus · « **Reply #25 on:** August 20, 2011, 11:28:12 AM »

Quote from: Daegus

I hate to quadruple post but I can't edit my posts anymore.

I'd like to know if those who have not received the Sacrament of baptism can be considered inside of the Church? Can we say that those who are "baptised by desire" are apart of the faithful?

.. and this.

trad123 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 20, 2011, 11:37:19 AM »

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/Baptism_of_Desire.html

trad123 · « **Reply #27 on:** August 20, 2011, 11:41:55 AM »

One of my old posts:

Quote from: trad123

Articles of Interest:

Baptism of Desire and of Blood
MATER DEI SEMINARY newsletter "Adsum" (January, 2004)

http://www.traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/Baptism_of_Desire.html

Baptism of Desire and Theological Principles

http://www.traditionalmass.org/images/articles/BaptDes-Proofed.pdf

Baptism of Desire: An Exchange

http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=28&catname=2

Quote from: Telesphorus
I don't define Church membership as belonging only to those who have been baptized with water.

This contradicts Pope Pius' teaching in Mystici Corporis Christi:

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12MYSTI.HTM

Quote
22. Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.

What the deal is, is that it is not absolutely necessary to be a member of the Church to belong to the Church.

Two more links of interest:

Membership in the Church, Mons. Fenton Articles

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/Membership-in-the-Church-2

Letter of the Holy Office

http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdffeeny.htm

It's necessary for salvation for a person to belong to the soul of the Church in actuality, and the body of the Church at least in desire, and this desire can be implicit.

MyrnaM · « **Reply #28 on:** August 20, 2011, 01:26:18 PM »

Quote from: Daegus

Quote from: MyrnaM
Quote
Exilenomore said:
There are Saints who where catechumens and who were martyred before having been able to receive water Baptism. The Holy Innocents, too, are in Heaven.

Daegus said: With regards to saints who were Catechumens, I haven't seen any proof that any of those people did not receive water baptism at any point in time. Just because no known text explicitly says that they did doesn't mean that they didn't.

With regards to the Holy Innocents, they were martyred before the law of baptism was ever even established and made efficacious by Christ's Passion.

The books lives of the Saints said so, with approval of the Church, so when you stand before God, better to have that backing you, instead of some Feeynite, who is outside the Church because they deny a de fide teaching.

Are you saying that baptism of desire is a dogma of the faith? I have not seen any clear teaching on whether or not baptism of desire is a dogma of the faith. A saint saying that something is "de fide" does not constitute a dogma.

I have in my personal library here at home, about 20 catechism books, all approved by the Church and all published prior to Vatican II. I think it is wise to believe what they say; that BOD and BOB are valid avenues of saving your soul. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever and if the people in the Old Testament can save their soul by loving God, then if necessary so can people today.

Of course if someone is not Baptized they should not delay another minute, because Bapism is a sacrament of the Church, while BOD and BOB are not sacraments.

Daegus · « **Reply #29 on:** August 20, 2011, 02:01:42 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

I have in my personal library here at home, about 20 catechism books, all approved by the Church and all published prior to Vatican II. I think it is wise to believe what they say; that BOD and BOB are valid avenues of saving your soul. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever and if the people in the Old Testament can save their soul by loving God, then if necessary so can people today.

That really does not answer my question of whether or not you were saying baptism of desire is a dogma of the faith.

Quote

Of course if someone is not Baptized they should not delay another minute, because Bapism is a sacrament of the Church, while BOD and BOB are not sacraments.

You know, despite your arguments (which unfortunately don't convince me in the slightest bit), I suppose I can see why - in a way - baptism of desire could work. After all (and this just hit me), a Catholic can have their sins forgiven just by their desire to be in the friendship of God again (perfect contrition), but they still must have the intention of confessing their sins.. even if they do die an "unforeseen" death. At the same time confession is not quite the same because those able to confess are baptized.

What I'm really having trouble with is understanding just how baptism of desire could work. If natural water is a necessity of baptism, how can they be saved without it? Would God somehow slow down time (or something of the sort), have an angel minister water to the person and baptise them before death, or do you people have a different idea in mind?