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Author Topic: Baptism of Desire..  (Read 10950 times)

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Baptism of Desire..
« Reply #70 on: August 21, 2011, 12:18:03 PM »

Baptism of Desire..
« Reply #71 on: August 21, 2011, 12:20:40 PM »
Quote from: LordPhan
Quote from: Daegus
[
Why are you people not answering my questions?



Maybe because you are asking a high theological question and the responders are not theologians.

It also has no relevance to any of the lives of the people you are speaking to. BoD is when you want to be baptised and you attempt to do so and die on the way, then God MAY grant you salvation.

That is a basic answer because I too am not a theologian.

Buy the book I just linked you to. It will give you the type of answers you seek.


Thank you, LordPhan, for at least having the decency to try and answer my question without getting agitated because I don't automatically agree. Thank you for also not accusing me of absurd things. It's good to know that there is at least 1 person on this thread who isn't inexplicably bad willed.

I'll consider the book.

One thing I'd like to point out is how you at least tried to define BoD, which no one else does, and if they do, the definition keeps changing to suit their points.


Baptism of Desire..
« Reply #72 on: August 21, 2011, 12:30:29 PM »
Quote from: Exilenomore
Quote from: Hermenegild
Quote from: Exilenomore
Quote from: St. Alphonsus, Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7
Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means ablution or immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water ["fluminis"], of desire ["flaminis" = wind] and of blood.

We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was very probably instituted before the passion of Christ the Lord, when Christ was baptised by John. But Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de ####o non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved "without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it".

Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood, i.e. death, suffered for the Faith or for some other Christian virtue. Now this Baptism is comparable to true Baptism because, like true Baptism, it remits both guilt and punishment as it were ex opere operato. I say as it were because martyrdom does not act by as strict a causality ["non ita stricte"] as the sacraments, but by a certain privilege on account of its resemblance to the passion of Christ. Hence martyrdom avails also for infants seeing that the Church venerates the Holy Innocents as true martyrs. That is why Suarez rightly teaches that the opposing view [i.e. the view that infants are not able to benefit from Baptism of blood – translator] is at least temerarious. In adults, however, acceptance of martyrdom is required, at least habitually from a supernatural motive.

It is clear that martyrdom is not a sacrament, because it is not an action instituted by Christ, and for the same reason neither was the Baptism of John a sacrament: it did not sanctify a man, but only prepared him for the coming of Christ.


(Translated by John Daly)




St. Alphonsus is a Saint and Doctor of the Church. One should not make caricatures of the salutary doctrine of the Church, pulling definitions out of their proper context.


Other canonized Doctors actually rejected what St. Alphonsus teaches here.

How do we reconcile this?


By submitting to the Holy Office which condemned the errors of Leonard Feeney during the reign of Pope Pius XII.


Any docuмents calling Fr Feeney to Rome or ex-comming him because he failed to comply are Fraudulent.

Baptism of Desire..
« Reply #73 on: August 21, 2011, 12:39:09 PM »
roscoe,

Quote
Any docuмents calling Fr Feeney to Rome or ex-comming him because he failed to comply are Fraudulent.



The process was indeed canonically defective as was the "letter"

Also the book by Fr Laisney is written from a more liberal and sentimentilist viewpoint.  It is simply a pro BOD point of view.

Baptism of Desire..
« Reply #74 on: August 21, 2011, 01:24:33 PM »
I have read Gary Potter but not Laisney.