Author Topic: Baptism of Desire 101 (Read 4600 times)

Binechi · « **on:** December 04, 2014, 09:05:54 AM »

Baptism of Desire 101

Define Baptism of Desire...

The theory of men that a man can obtain eternal salvation thru a "(vow, votum, desire, will) for the Sacrament of Baptism, without ever being water Baptised.... and in the later times, without being a member of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church does not teach this , never will ,,, Trent has never taught this, Never will.

Most out there use the erroneous translation of Denzinger (Sources of Catholic Dogmas), on the session of Justification to try to "justify" their position.

There is another source out there with its Latin that vilifies the Denz. and brings to light the true meaning of Trent, on justification and that is the translation by Fr. Norman P. Tanner.

Tanner

Chap. 4. Suggested description of the justification of a sinner and its character in the state of grace
By those words there is suggested a description of the justification of a sinner: how there is a transition from that state in which a person is born as a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of adoption as children of God through the agency of the second Adam, Jesus Christ our savior; indeed, this transition, once the gospel has been promulgated, cannot take place without the waters of rebirth or the desire for them, as it is written:

Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

So Justification Cannot take Place if either the water or the vow, desire for the water are missing.
Both are required or you have No Justification. No justification , No Salvation

There is lots more to be said on this subject , but will leave it for further review..

The Latin by Tanner...

Cap. IV. Insinmatur descriptio instificationis impii, et modus eius in statu gratioe
Quibus verbis iustificationis impii desceptio insinuator, ut sit translation ab eo statu, in qui homo nascitur filus primi Adac, in statum gratiae et adoptionis filiorum Dei3, per secundum Adam lesum Christum salvatorem nostrum; quac quidem translation post evangelium promulgatum sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto fieri non potest, sicut scriptum est: Nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu sancto non potest introire in regnum Dei4.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #1 on:** December 04, 2014, 09:54:29 AM »

Quote from: Nado

The Roman Catechism clearly teaches an adult can die in a sudden accident and still be save.

Different topic. That's honestly what annoys me to no end. Every single BoD thread immediately goes off topic. This thread is dedicated to the question of whether the Council of Trent itself taught BoD.

And, no The Roman Catechism does NOT "clearly" teach BoD. Not only that, but it's clearly referring to no one other than a Catechumen, someone preparing for Baptism and intending to be Baptized, not some Great Thumb worshipper in the jungle, eh? I'll address that when you actually start a thread dedicated to the subject.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #2 on:** December 04, 2014, 09:56:42 AM »

Quote from: Nado

The official law of the Church recognizes the same by making the priest offer a public requiem mass for such souls.

And now another topic, the 1917 Code of Canon Law. Again, start a different thread about that. Pretty soon you'll be citing Van Noort and going off the deep end, trying to convert this into a 150-page thread about anything and everything related to BoD.

1917 Code of Canon Law also speaks explicitly of "CATECHUMENS" ... so it does not back your Pelagian heresy either.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #3 on:** December 04, 2014, 09:57:47 AM »

It's as if you guys just try to throw handfuls of excrement at the wall hoping that something will stick. If one point is refuted, you try some other angle, and then another ... instead of sticking to one point at a time.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #4 on:** December 04, 2014, 10:11:54 AM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Ladislaus
Quote from: Nado
The Roman Catechism clearly teaches an adult can die in a sudden accident and still be save.

Different topic. That's honestly what annoys me to no end. Every single BoD thread immediately goes off topic. This thread is dedicated to the question of whether the Council of Trent itself taught BoD.

And, no The Roman Catechism does NOT "clearly" teach BoD. Not only that, but it's clearly referring to no one other than a Catechumen, someone preparing for Baptism and intending to be Baptized, not some Great Thumb worshipper in the jungle, eh? I'll address that when you actually start a thread dedicated to the subject.

Yes, it is PRECISELY on-topic. It fits the title, and it addresses Director's claim that Trent doesn't teach baptism of desire.

Yes, it fits the title. No, it does not address the topic of whether Trent taught BoD in the passage cited.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #5 on:** December 04, 2014, 10:15:23 AM »

Quote from: Nado

Yes, the adult who died as referenced in the Trent catechism quote I gave, died justified by an act of baptism of desire.....not water.

Wrong thread. You just insist on polluting and trolling up every single thread instead of addressing the issue at hand.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #6 on:** December 04, 2014, 10:28:14 AM »

What a troll. How hard would it be for you to start another thread?

Stubborn · « **Reply #7 on:** December 04, 2014, 11:59:39 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

What a troll. How hard would it be for you to start another thread?

I hate to butt in but nada cannot stay on topic for even two posts - and that's giving it the benefit of the doubt.

Cantarella · « **Reply #8 on:** December 04, 2014, 12:23:54 PM »

Here we go again!

Nowhere in the Council of Trent or ever for that matter, the Church has taught that the desire for Baptism is sufficient for Salvation. The Church could not contradict Herself in what She has infallibly defined. Baptism of water is absolutely necessary for every soul to enter Heaven and it is no optional for no one. This is dogma.

The matter for Baptism as given to us by CHRIST HIMSELF (see Jon 3:5) is true and natural WATER. (See also Eph.5:26; Per 1:20-21)

Quote

Infallible Magisterium:

A. Council of Lateran IV, The Catholic Faith:

The sacrament of Baptism, which at the invocation of God and the undivided Trinity, namely the Father the Son and The Holy Ghost, is solemnized in water, rightly conferred to anyone in the form of the Church is useful unto salvation.

B. Council of Florence, Exaltate Domino (1439):

Holy Baptism...holds the first place among the sacraments....the matter of this sacrament is real and natural water, it makes no difference warm or cold.

C. Pope Innocent III, Non ut Apponeres (1206):

In Baptism, two things are always and necessarily required, namely the words and the element (water)...You ought not to doubt that they do not have true Baptism in which one of them is missing.

D. Council of Trent, Canons of Baptism (Canon 2)

If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for Baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

Cantarella · « **Reply #9 on:** December 04, 2014, 12:39:00 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

What's absolutely fatal to this interpretation of Trent is the quote from Our Lord that comes afterwards.

On its face, the phrase "X cannot happen without A or B" is ambiguous ... due to the double-negative construct. It could mean "X cannot happen without both A & B" or "X cannot happen without EITHER A OR B". But the phrase after it immediately disambiguates.

Why did Trent use the word "laver" instead of just saying "Baptism" or "the Sacrament of Baptism"? It's because Trent wanted to invoke the notion of WATER. Trent had also just spent paragraphs explaining how the Holy Spirit disposes the will to cooperate with the grace of justification. It's about the ex opere operato effect of the Sacrament bringing the grace of justification WITH COOPERATION OF THE WILL ... against the Protestant errors. That's why there's a Canon later condemning the notion that the Sacrament can effect justification without the cooperation of the will. St. Thomas devoted a question to whether the Sacrament confers the grace of justification if the will doesn't cooperate.

So, back to Trent, the Holy Spirit give graces to inspire the will to cooperate with the ex opere operato grace from the Sacrament of Baptism.

Trent taught that justification cannot happen without the laver (water) or the will (as moved by the Holy Spirit) and then immediately backs that statement up by quoting Our Lord as teaching that rebirth requires water AND the Holy Spirit, i.e. the laver AND the movement of the will by the Holy Spirit, i.e. the cooperation and proper dispositions.

In order for me to accept the typical reading of Trent, I would have to say that Trent said:

Justification cannot happen without either Baptism or else the desire for it because Jesus taught that it cannot happen without both Baptism and the desire for it. That would be borderline blasphemous. Our Lord said and, but we say or.

That is NOT what Trent is teaching.

In addition, if Trent were teaching BoD, the fact that there's not even a token mention of BoB is absolutely inexplicable, since most of the Church Fathers who advocated BoB explicitly rejected BoD and most BoB theorists claim that it works differently from BoB in being "quasi ex opere operato". Trent then overturns the Patristic teaching of BoB but no BoD by saying that BoB essentially reduces to BoD and is therefore ex opere operantis in its effect.

There is absolutely no way that Trent intended to define or teach BoD here.

True. Trent teaches that BOTH are necessary WATER and FAITH and anathemize those who deny it.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #10 on:** December 04, 2014, 01:12:27 PM »

.

Nado is a CMRI groupie, with blinders on.

When someone refuses to see the obvious there is no hope of a conversation.

When it comes to the lifespan of man, there is no such thing as an "accident" in the eyes of God.

.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #11 on:** December 04, 2014, 01:16:03 PM »

Again, wrong thread, Nado.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #12 on:** December 04, 2014, 01:16:29 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

What a troll. How hard would it be for you to start another thread?

Trolls don't start new threads when they know they'll just be ignored.

Trolls hate being ignored. It really gets their billy goat gruff. HAHAHAHA

.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #13 on:** December 04, 2014, 01:22:13 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Nado
Yes, the adult who died as referenced in the Trent catechism quote I gave, died justified by an act of baptism of desire.....not water.

Wrong thread. You just insist on polluting and trolling up every single thread instead of addressing the issue at hand.

It's a protestant tactic. I've seen it again and again. I know a 'Jєωιѕн' agnostic who just can't manage to stay on topic regarding epistemology. He claims to like to talk about philosophy, but when I call his bluff, he runs for cover. Every. Single. Time.

Protestants like to jump topic not because they are intellectually dishonest, but because they are demonically obsessed. They do what comes natural, and that means putting up smokescreens when the going gets uncomfortable.

When a wild animal is trapped, you can't blame him for acting out with violence, because that's the way his nervous system is wired.

.

Binechi · « **Reply #14 on:** December 04, 2014, 01:48:01 PM »

Baptism 101

Define Baptism of Desire...

The theory of men that a man can obtain eternal salvation thru a "(vow, votum, desire, will) for the Sacrament of Baptism, without ever being water Baptised.... and in the later times, without being a member of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church does not teach this , never will ,,, Trent has never taught this, Never will.

Most out there use the erroneous translation of Denzinger (Sources of Catholic Dogmas), on the session of Justification to try to "justify" their position.

There is another source out there with its Latin that vilifies the Denz. and brings to light the true meaning of Trent, on justification and that is the translation by Fr. Norman P. Tanner.

Tanner

Chap. 4. Suggested description of the justification of a sinner and its character in the state of grace
By those words there is suggested a description of the justification of a sinner: how there is a transition from that state in which a person is born as a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of adoption as children of God through the agency of the second Adam, Jesus Christ our savior; indeed, this transition, once the gospel has been promulgated, cannot take place without the waters of rebirth or the desire for them, as it is written:

Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

So Justification Cannot take Place if either the water or the vow, desire for the water are missing.
Both are required or you have No Justification. No justification , No Salvation

There is lots more to be said on this subject , but will leave it for further review..

The Latin by Tanner...

Cap. IV. Insinmatur descriptio instificationis impii, et modus eius in statu gratioe
Quibus verbis iustificationis impii desceptio insinuator, ut sit translation ab eo statu, in qui homo nascitur filus primi Adac, in statum gratiae et adoptionis filiorum Dei3, per secundum Adam lesum Christum salvatorem nostrum; quac quidem translation post evangelium promulgatum sine lavacro regenerationis aut eius voto fieri non potest, sicut scriptum est: Nisi quis renatus fuerit ex aqua et Spiritu sancto non potest introire in regnum Dei4.