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Author Topic: Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!  (Read 8233 times)

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Offline CM

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Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
« on: July 17, 2009, 03:45:59 AM »
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  • The theory that a person who is unbaptized can be saved, commonly known as baptism of blood, is a heresy in opposition to the following dogmatic decree of Pope Eugene IV, in the Council of Florence: "...nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

    So an unbaptized person, who is outside the Church, cannot shed their blood for the name of Christ and attain salvation.

    Common objection:

    St. Mark 10:38: "And Jesus said to them: You know not what you ask. Can you drink of the chalice that I drink of: or be baptized with the baptism wherewith I am baptized?" Surely this referred to martyrdom as a kind of baptism?

    Well yes it did, didn't it? And rightly so. It is a dogmatic truth of the Catholic Faith that baptism is the only sacrament that provides complete and total remission for all sins and forgives all punishment due to sins. And Catholics hold it as true that martyrdom does the same exact thing.

    Does this mean that a person who is unbaptized can attain salvation by martyrdom, as the Baptism of blood heretics like to assert? Of course not. Why would they create an unprecedented scenario that rivals the account of the Gospel? If they say that Jesus called his Passion a baptism, and that for this reason unbaptized people who undergo a 'passion' in His name can attain salvation, they ignore a very important part of the Gospel. Jesus was already baptized when He underwent His sufferings and death.

    St. Mark 1:9: "And it came to pass, in those days, Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan."

    Baptism of blood heretics may say they believe in the necessity of water baptism, but then they turn around and say that God is not bound by His own sacraments, and can save whomever He wills. Again they ignore an important part of the Gospel.

    St. Matthew 3:13-15: "Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him."

    Jesus Christ instituted the sacrament of baptism, the sacrament of Faith, as the sole means by which we may enter into His Church and be adopted as the sons and daughters of God. It is true that by the power of His divinity, he could save anyone whom He wills, even the non-baptized, but this would be directly opposed to justice, since He has oathed Himself to the sacrament.

    St. John 3:5: "Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    The God-man, Jesus Christ, says quite clearly "...it becometh us to fulfill all justice" and since He is unchanging, He is not about to alter the way in which He brings souls to salvation.

    Furthermore, martyrdom is not a sacrament, and we know from the profession of faith of Pope Pius IX at the Vatican Council that the reception of sacraments is necessary for salvation.

    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council, Session 2, Profession of Faith: "I profess also that there are seven sacraments of the new law, truly and properly so called, instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ and necessary for salvation, though each person need not receive them all. They are: 1. baptism, 2. confirmation, 3. the Eucharist, 4. penance, 5. last anointing, 6. order and 7. matrimony; and they confer grace. Of these baptism, confirmation and order may not be repeated without sacrilege."

    So it clearly follows that at least one sacrament is necessary for salvation, that one sacrament being baptism in water. Without this sacrament, a person is not a member of the Church, and cannot attain salvation, even if they shed their blood for the name of Christ.

    Catholic martyrs are those who have been baptized, and have died for the true Faith of the true God, while holding and professing that same Faith. The only sense in which this is similar to baptism, is that by their death, it is believed that they are forgiven for all sins they have committed since their baptism as well as for the temporal punishment due to those sins, and that they fly straight to heaven to meet Him for whom they have died.


    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
    « Reply #1 on: July 17, 2009, 05:02:01 AM »
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  • What about those who are prevented from getting baptized, by force?
    We had many of them here in past decades, many of them were killed for their faith, while they really wanted to be baptized. They couldn't receive this sacrament because of i#s#lami#cs laws of this land.


    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
    « Reply #2 on: July 17, 2009, 05:03:08 AM »
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  • And the holy innocents whose feast is celebrated?

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
    « Reply #3 on: July 17, 2009, 09:50:52 AM »
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  • Quote from: spouse of Jesus
    And the holy innocents whose feast is celebrated?


    There's no use arguing with him.

    Offline Vladimir

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    Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
    « Reply #4 on: July 17, 2009, 10:46:25 AM »
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  • Offline Telesphorus

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    Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
    « Reply #5 on: July 17, 2009, 10:57:18 AM »
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  • Quote from: Vladimir
    The Holy Infants descended to the Limbo of the Fathers most likely, along with all the other Old Testament prophets and saints. They ascended into Heaven when Christ went there to free them. and unity of the Catholic Church[/b].


    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

    Stating that a martyred catechumen is not saved is really temerarious and can only be made a theological battle-cry by someone infected with a severe case of rigorism.

    Consider the consequences of being wrong about this Feeneyite position.  If one is wrong about it, one is not only holding a heretical opinion, but they are causing grave doubts in the minds of many as to the justice of God.  They are saying people are outside the Church when it is they themselves who are putting themselves outside the Church.

    http://www.sspx.org/miscellaneous/fr_feeney_catholic_doctrine.htm

    Offline Vladimir

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    Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
    « Reply #6 on: July 17, 2009, 11:04:55 AM »
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  • I am not saying that. I am saying however, that it is a moral certainty that those who do not abide within the Church cannot be saved - in other words, all those not inside the Church will be condemned to Hell. From what I can tell, catechumens are not in the Church -- I base this on the fact that the Holy Mass is divided into the Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful. If catechumens were inside the Church, they would be able to stay for the Mass of the Faithful, but instead, they are dismissed after the sermon (if there is one). In other words, catechumens are not inside the Church, but they are knocking on Her door.

    I'm not making any battle cries. I'm rather timid and don't like to say harsh things like "Catechumens go to Hell" unless I need to.



    Offline Telesphorus

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    Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
    « Reply #7 on: July 17, 2009, 11:17:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: Vladimir
    I am not saying that. I am saying however, that it is a moral certainty that those who do not abide within the Church cannot be saved - in other words, all those not inside the Church will be condemned to Hell. From what I can tell, catechumens are not in the Church -- I base this on the fact that the Holy Mass is divided into the Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful.


    Who said this designation proves that a catechumenate martyred for the Faith does not have a baptism of blood and is saved? You are interpreting the Council docuмent erroneously.

     
    Quote
    I'm not making any battle cries. I'm rather timid and don't like to say harsh things like "Catechumens go to Hell" unless I need to.


    Well, you certainly don't need to.  Certainly you shouldn't be giving aid and comfort to the Feeneyites.


    Offline Vladimir

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    Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
    « Reply #8 on: July 17, 2009, 11:22:35 AM »
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  • Quote

    Who said this designation proves that a catechumenate martyred for the Faith does not have a baptism of blood and is saved? You are interpreting the Council docuмent erroneously.


    Because if a catechumen is not among the Faithful then he is not in the Church right? How can there be a baptism of blood? Why did Our Lord not say that then? and not that we need baptism of water and the Holy Ghost in order to enter Heaven?

    Quote

    Well, you certainly don't need to.  Certainly you shouldn't be giving aid and comfort to the Feeneyites.


    I honestly have no clue who Fr. Feeney is, or what constitutes a "feenyite" (I've been exposed to Traditional Catholicism for only a few months). I just take "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" literally.



    Offline Telesphorus

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    Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
    « Reply #9 on: July 17, 2009, 11:29:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: Vladimir
    Because if a catechumen is not among the Faithful then he is not in the Church right?


    He is if he's martyred.

    Quote
    How can there be a baptism of blood?


    God can save such a person.

    Quote
    Why did Our Lord not say that then? and not that we need baptism of water and the Holy Ghost in order to enter Heaven?


    If someone refuses baptism they can't be saved.  But you cannot say that someone with the intention to be baptized cannot be saved.

    Quote
    I honestly have no clue who Fr. Feeney is, or what constitutes a "feenyite" (I've been exposed to Traditional Catholicism for only a few months). I just take "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" literally.


    You don't know who Fr. Feeney is?  He was condemned by the Holy Office.

    I recommend you read that link I posted above.


    Offline Telesphorus

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    Offline Elizabeth

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    Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
    « Reply #11 on: July 17, 2009, 11:31:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: spouse of Jesus
    What about those who are prevented from getting baptized, by force?
    We had many of them here in past decades, many of them were killed for their faith, while they really wanted to be baptized. They couldn't receive this sacrament because of i#s#lami#cs laws of this land.


    What do you think?  Do you think God wants those souls to suffer in Hell with child molesters and rapists and devil worshippers?

    Of course not.  Remember at Our Lord's Crucifixion, when He told The Good Theif, "you will be with me in Paradise"  

    Where was the water?

    What about the Holy Innocents?

    Please don't listen to these posters making stuff up bout the Faith as they go along.

    Offline Vladimir

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    Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
    « Reply #12 on: July 17, 2009, 11:44:59 AM »
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  • Quote

    Of course not.  Remember at Our Lord's Crucifixion, when He told The Good Theif, "you will be with me in Paradise"  


    First of all, God can do what ever He wills, including working around His own laws. But He doesn't because God is Just as well. Jesus didn't need to be baptised, but He did anyways.

    Second, I've already answered the question about the Holy Innocents. Technically, the Church did not begin until after the Resurrection, so the Good Thief went to the Limbo of the Fathers along with Christ and ascended into Heaven along with all the other Old Testament saints.


    Quote

    You don't know who Fr. Feeney is?  He was condemned by the Holy Office.


    I have a vague idea, but I'm not aware of the details of all the controversy surrounding him. I just don't see any debate. There's absolutely no salvation outside the Church -- let's stop arguing so that we can bring more people into the Church.

    Quote
    I recommend you read that link I posted above.


    I will....although I will be wary, considering it is a link to a FSSPX site.



    Offline Telesphorus

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    « Reply #13 on: July 17, 2009, 11:47:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: Vladimir
    I will....although I will be wary, considering it is a link to a FSSPX site.


    You should always be wary.  Particularly of the Dimond brothers.

    Offline CM

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    Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
    « Reply #14 on: July 17, 2009, 02:50:08 PM »
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  • Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, "Exultate Deo," Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra (reminder- this means infallible): "Holy baptism, which is the gateway to the spiritual life, holds the first place among all the sacraments; through it we are made members of Christ and of the body of the Church. And since death entered the universe through the first man, 'unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, we cannot,' as the Truth says, 'enter into the kingdom of heaven' [John 3:5]. The matter of this sacrament is real and natural water."

    Nobody is found in the Catholic Church, who is not baptized. This is a dogma, to deny which is heresy. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, and as the very first quote in the original post relates, even those outside the Church who shed their blood for the name of Christ cannot be saved.

    Holy Innocents and Good Thief:

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ's Resurrection, p. 171: "Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.