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Author Topic: Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!  (Read 23617 times)

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Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2009, 05:15:32 PM »
Quote from: Catholic Martyr
Quote from: Caraffa
So if a person dies with supernatural faith in Christ and charity, you CM are going to condemn him to hell because he/she was unable to be baptized before death? You've gone so far in Feeneyism that you even condemn Feeney as a heretic. :pop:


Supernatural faith, you say.  How exactly does one get that faith if they are outside of God's Church?  There is no supernatural faith outside of God's Church.  You have to be a member of the Church to be saved, and you have to be baptized to become a member of the Church.  Period.  The dogmas tell the truth.


Pope Alexander VIII
5. Pagans, Jews, heretics, and others of this kind do not receive in any way any influence from Jesus Christ, and so you will rightly infer from this that in them there is a bare and weak will without any sufficient grace.-Condemned

Pope Clement XI
29. Outside of the Church, no grace is granted.-Condemned

They are given supernatural faith through grace.

Offline CM

Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2009, 09:18:02 PM »
Excuse me Caraffa, but you are taking my words out of context, and you are making an unproved assumption by saying people outside the Church receive supernatural faith through grace.  In another thread,

Quote from: Catholic Martyr
...The necessary dogmas are contained in the Athanasian Creed, and their necessity is testified to by Pope Eugence IV, when he asserts the following:

"This is the Catholic Faith. Unless a person believes it faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."

So a person who does not believe the Catholic Faith cannot be saved, neither is this person Catholic.  A person who believes, but is not baptized has natural faith, which may be a gift of prevenient grace from God, insofar as it disposes him to seek baptism, but it cannot save him without this sacrament.


Perfectly in line with infallible Catholic Tradition:

Council of Trent, Session 6, Decree on Justification, Chapter 5:"The Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification..."

How do they convert themselves to their own justification?  As was laid out in the chapter immediately before this one:

Council of Trent, Session 6, Decree on Justification, Chapter 4: "By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

So the burden is upon you not to refute a strawman argument, which you have built by implying that I said there is no grace outside of the Church, but the burden of proof is upon you to refute my assertion that it is the sacrament of baptism alone that confers SUPERNATURAL FAITH.

Furthermore, I offer you this ex cathedra decree to reassert that without the sacrament of faith, a person may not be justified:

Council of Trent, Session 6, Decree on Justification, Chapter 7: "Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified;"


Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2009, 05:20:10 AM »
Quote from: Vladimir
...I base this on the fact that the Holy Mass is divided into the Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful. If catechumens were inside the Church, they would be able to stay for the Mass of the Faithful, but instead, they are dismissed after the sermon (if there is one).


Does that still happen anywhere? I can't say I'd noticed any non-Catholics leaving after the sermon (and there often are non-Catholics at Mass).

Offline gladius_veritatis

  • Supporter
Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2009, 05:42:21 AM »
Quote from: Catholic Martyr
The dogmas tell the truth.


Ah, but do you tell the truth about/properly understand the dogmas?

Baptism of Blood IS REAL!!!!!!
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2009, 11:27:33 AM »
Quote from: gladius_veritatis
Quote from: Catholic Martyr
The dogmas tell the truth.


Ah, but do you tell the truth about/properly understand the dogmas?


The appearance of this kind of specious contradiction is chiefly due to the fact that either the dogmas of faith are not understood and explained in accordance with the mind of the Church, or unsound views are mistaken for the conclusions of reason.

Hence why the church should explain, and not ones self?

Of course, this still leaves us in a 'pickle' with Vatican II in several spots, despite constant requests to 'interpret in light of tradition.'  

Some places it is near impossible to interpret in light of tradition.