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Author Topic: Baptism of blood for infants.  (Read 37350 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Baptism of blood for infants.
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2010, 07:44:08 PM »
Quote from: Caminus
Such a response is cliche.  The same principles apply since the precept was not yet promulgated.  


There's absolutely nothing "cliche" about it.  It's just a simple fact.

People in the old dispensation were saved through the precursors to justification as described by the Council of Trent.  But they waited in the Limbo of the Fathers because they could not have justification itself until Christ applied His Passion to them.  He did that in a special way for them outside of Baptism.  Whereas in the new dispensation Baptism is the only way.  And just as in the new dispensation the precursors to justification can be supplied by proxy to infants because they themselves have not yet reached the use of reason, so the intentions of their parents to abide by the Old Testament laws (via circuмcision for the Holy Innocents) supplied for those infants these same dispositions for justification.


Baptism of blood for infants.
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2010, 10:05:36 PM »
Quote
But they waited in the Limbo of the Fathers because they could not have justification itself until Christ applied His Passion to them.


This is theologically erroneous.  That's like saying the Blessed Virgin wasn't truly justified until after the Passion.  It's like positing something other than sanctifying grace justified those under the old dispensation.  

But to address the original point, it remains true that they were and are considered "martyrs" for Jesus Christ by the Church.  As such, it follows that there can be infant martyrs after His Passion as well.  It seems strange that I would have to say this.  


Offline Ladislaus

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Baptism of blood for infants.
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2010, 07:22:49 AM »
Quote from: Caminus
Quote
But they waited in the Limbo of the Fathers because they could not have justification itself until Christ applied His Passion to them.


This is theologically erroneous.  That's like saying the Blessed Virgin wasn't truly justified until after the Passion.  It's like positing something other than sanctifying grace justified those under the old dispensation.


No, the Blessed Virgin Mary was an exception, in the sense that She had the fruits of Our Lord's Passion applied to Her beforehand.  Read the Council of Trent's decree on justification, which clearly distinguishes between the subjective dispositions necessary for justification and the "justification itself" which comes AFTERWARDS as a result of the application of Our Lord's Passion by Baptism.

Quote
But to address the original point, it remains true that they were and are considered "martyrs" for Jesus Christ by the Church.  As such, it follows that there can be infant martyrs after His Passion as well.  It seems strange that I would have to say this.


Yes, they were martyrs, but their martyrdom wasn't the cause of their justification, i.e. they were not saved by BoB.  They were saved by being in a state of pre-justification per the old dispensation.  Even the Holy Innocents were hanging out in the Limbo of the Fathers until Our Lord's Passion was applied to them.  Why?  Because, DESPITE their martyrdom, they were not yet justified.  Otherwise, the Holy Innocents would have gone straight to heaven.  But they didn't.  Which proves my point.

And this would raise other issues if they were saved by this martyrdom, because then you're saying that BoB works ex opere operato even in those who have not reached the age of reason, i.e. you'd be saying that BoB is in fact a Sacrament, which it is not.

So, no, Caminus, YOUR position is theologically erroneous.  To say that sanctifying grace somehow justifies (and can even exist) apart from the free-grace unmerited application of Christ's merits by Baptism contradicts the Council of Trent's decree on justification.  You're almost implying that people can earn justification by getting into a state of sanctification--which is PRECISELY why I reject BoB and BoD.

Offline Ladislaus

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Baptism of blood for infants.
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2010, 07:55:25 AM »
Quote from: Raoul76
Secondly, nothing in Trent talks about baptism of desire failing to take away the full "debt of punishment."  He is acting as if Trent goes into detail about baptism of desire when Trent mentions it in passing, if at all.


I went back to read Trent's Decree on Justification and am convinced that Trent does NOT teach BoD at all, that the votum refers to the "voluntary reception" of Baptism referred to a couple paragraphs later.  I'm in the process of writing something up on that issue.  votum is a form of the word volo which is in turn related to the word voluntas.  Trent is treating specifically of the relationship between unmerited grace and cooperation of the will (will=voluntas) against the Protestant errors of the day, thus explicitly referring to the need for a "voluntary reception" of Baptism.  It's very obvious to me that Trent did not teach BoD.

Baptism of blood for infants.
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2010, 10:53:22 PM »
Victories of the Martyrs by Saint Alphonsus has several accounts of men, women, and children that are venerated as saints in the Latin and Oriental churches that did not receive baptism by water. I'm fairly sure that this book is free from theological and dogmatic error.