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Author Topic: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"  (Read 3132 times)

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Offline jerm

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Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2020, 09:37:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: An even 7 on March 06, 2020, 07:11:45 PM
    The main point is that it doesn't prove there can't be Bishops. While we're on the subject, what is your interpretation? Do you have one or do you just not like mine?
    My take is that we need Bishops as an essential part of the Church's indefectibility. I interpret this docuмent as agreeing with that. I think my perspective is best defended by Etsi Multa, in which Pope Pius IX states,
    "[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]They obstinately reject and oppose the infallible magisterium both of the Roman Pontiff and of the whole Church in teaching matters. Incredibly, they boldly affirm that the Roman Pontiff and all the bishops, the priests and the people conjoined with him in the unity of faith and communion fell into heresy when they approved and professed the definitions of the Ecuмenical Vatican Council. Therefore they deny also the indefectibility of the Church and blasphemously declare that it has perished throughout the world and that its visible Head and the bishops have erred. They assert the necessity of restoring a legitimate episcopacy in the person of their pseudo-bishop, who has entered not by the gate but from elsewhere like a thief or robber and calls the damnation of Christ upon his head."[/color]

    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Among all of the heresies listed, including rejecting the Church's magisterium, comes "blasphemously" declaring that the visible Head and Bishops have erred. So, I believe that neither of these two things have happened or can happen.[/color]
    A friend told me that there's a Bishop who rejects BoD anyways, so the point is moot, really. His first name is Neil or Neal, I think, but I don't remember his last name. He's much less dogmatic about it than the Dimonds, though.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #31 on: March 07, 2020, 10:09:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: jerm on March 06, 2020, 04:30:11 PM
    On the one hand, I can see where this perspective comes from. On the other, I don't see how the entire Church could be wrong about it. The Church is a visible society, but if there is a Bishop rejecting BoD out there, then he isn't preserving the Church's unity whatsoever.
    The entire Church of which Trent is Her representative, is not wrong, but those who believe in a BOD are. IMO, all the bishops do believe in it, even +ABL believed in it and regarding that, he too was wrong. I say they are all wrong and am content to leave it at that because what else can I do, but the Church condemns the idea with anathema.

    For me, it is not worth thinking about the gravity of the error they all hold as de fide, because we are certain that God's Kingdom on earth, the Church, will last until the end of the world without regard to the faith or lack of faith of the bishops. What we can say is they are wrong, and we can also say that at their judgement, they will answer for being so wrong - and not just about a BOD.        
     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #32 on: March 07, 2020, 10:12:30 AM »
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    • The Church is not just a sacredotal but teaching and governing society.  Her ability (which is essential to her mission) to propose items for belief and to govern her members is a function of her spiritual jurisdiction, which is exercised through bishops.  So, yes, unless one wishes to submit to the existence of a Church without any actual authority to bind its members to any belief or law, then bishops are quite necessary. 
    .
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #33 on: March 07, 2020, 10:24:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: jerm on March 06, 2020, 04:55:49 PM
    But the Bishops are the successors to the Apostles. If there are none left and, say, just a priest and some followers, then the faith is lost. A priest cannot ordain other priests or make new Bishops, so the Church as a whole would have defected. The Church would have no government left at all, just a few local churches.
    This is a common misconception.

    Using the reality of today's situation, all the conciliar bishops are anti-Catholic heretics and have been since at least  V2 due to their abhorrent denial and dissuading everyone from the true faith so as to accept and spread the anti-Catholic new faith. Yet, the Church remains steadfast as always for all those who seek to enter or to remain in it, and so it shall remain until the end of the world.

    What this crisis blatantly demonstrates for us all, we actually see and experience this since V2, is that the Church continues in Her mission in spite of and in the face of evil bishops, popes, priests and etc,. So the misconception is that the Church cannot survive or can defect thanks to the heretical hierarchy. Nope, not even that can destroy the Church. Proof of this is all around us since V2. Indefectible means indefectible, use this as your foundation and don't get caught up with misconceptions.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #34 on: March 07, 2020, 11:30:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 07, 2020, 07:21:15 AM
    Yeah, Xavier, but no Traditional Catholic believes that this "Charism of Truth" remains in the Novus Ordo hierarchy.  It's obvious that it is not.

    I agree with your principle, and it's a principle you hold in common with sedevacantists, but based on this principle we conclude that these men are not the hierarchy.

    R&R reject your principle and so claim that these men are legitimate despite not having this Charism.
    So the Charism of Truth does not remain among Bishop Athanasius, Cardinal Burke etc?

    Then where does it remain? That's the question, isn't it? My view is it includes, +A, +B etc.
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    Offline jerm

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #35 on: March 07, 2020, 11:32:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on March 07, 2020, 10:24:30 AM
    This is a common misconception.

    Using the reality of today's situation, all the conciliar bishops are anti-Catholic heretics and have been since at least  V2 due to their abhorrent denial and dissuading everyone from the true faith so as to accept and spread the anti-Catholic new faith. Yet, the Church remains steadfast as always for all those who seek to enter or to remain in it, and so it shall remain until the end of the world.

    What this crisis blatantly demonstrates for us all, we actually see and experience this since V2, is that the Church continues in Her mission in spite of and in the face of evil bishops, popes, priests and etc,. So the misconception is that the Church cannot survive or can defect thanks to the heretical hierarchy. Nope, not even that can destroy the Church. Proof of this is all around us since V2. Indefectible means indefectible, use this as your foundation and don't get caught up with misconceptions.
    I can accept this as an explanation, but I can't say the truth of the crisis can be known entirely. It's all up to our private judgment, and I'll wait for the Church's authority before deciding for sure.
    Where do you go to Church? Do you stay at home?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #36 on: March 07, 2020, 12:51:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: jerm on March 07, 2020, 11:32:15 AM
    I can accept this as an explanation, but I can't say the truth of the crisis can be known entirely. It's all up to our private judgment, and I'll wait for the Church's authority before deciding for sure.
    Where do you go to Church? Do you stay at home?
    Agreed. Some things we simply do not know, and outside of settling our curiosity, have no need of knowing. For me, I use the SSPX for Mass and the sacraments. Where do you go?     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #37 on: March 07, 2020, 01:29:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on March 07, 2020, 10:24:30 AM
    This is a common misconception.

    Using the reality of today's situation, all the conciliar bishops are anti-Catholic heretics and have been since at least  V2 due to their abhorrent denial and dissuading everyone from the true faith so as to accept and spread the anti-Catholic new faith. Yet, the Church remains steadfast as always for all those who seek to enter or to remain in it, and so it shall remain until the end of the world.

    What this crisis blatantly demonstrates for us all, we actually see and experience this since V2, is that the Church continues in Her mission in spite of and in the face of evil bishops, popes, priests and etc,. So the misconception is that the Church cannot survive or can defect thanks to the heretical hierarchy. Nope, not even that can destroy the Church. Proof of this is all around us since V2. Indefectible means indefectible, use this as your foundation and don't get caught up with misconceptions.
    The Church continues in her mission even when the handful of Trad Bishops are objective heretics(in your view)?
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    Offline jerm

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #38 on: March 07, 2020, 01:59:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on March 07, 2020, 12:51:57 PM
    Agreed. Some things we simply do not know, and outside of settling our curiosity, have no need of knowing. For me, I use the SSPX for Mass and the sacraments. Where do you go?    
    I go to an independent church with a SSPX Resistance priest when I'm at home, and an Eastern Catholic Church when I'm at university. Sadly, I was going through a period of uncertainty recently, and didn't go to Mass very much because I was considering becoming Eastern "Orthodox." Now, however, I understand my severe errors. Lord have mercy!
    Pretty much, though, I'll go anywhere with valid Catholic priests and Sacraments.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #39 on: March 07, 2020, 03:06:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on March 07, 2020, 01:29:44 PM
    Quote from: forlorn on Sat Mar 07 2020 14:29:44 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
    The Church continues in her mission even when the handful of Trad Bishops are objective heretics(in your view)?
    Certainly. Her mission is to save souls and at this She will never fail - and will most certainly always succeed in this mission right up until the end of the world for all who sincerely seek the truth and want to be saved. The real tragedy of it all, is that the many (most people) reject the truth of their own free will and think they can get to heaven on their own terms and in their own church, and as a result are forever lost. Although some like to think so, this is in no way the fault of the Church.

    Christ is the Church, the Church therefore will be forever invincible and He will receive into His Church all who seek the truth no matter if every pope and bishop for the next 100000 years is a heretic, His Church will be here for them then, just as it is here now for all of us. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #40 on: March 07, 2020, 03:12:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: jerm on March 07, 2020, 01:59:59 PM
    I go to an independent church with a SSPX Resistance priest when I'm at home, and an Eastern Catholic Church when I'm at university. Sadly, I was going through a period of uncertainty recently, and didn't go to Mass very much because I was considering becoming Eastern "Orthodox." Now, however, I understand my severe errors. Lord have mercy!
    Pretty much, though, I'll go anywhere with valid Catholic priests and Sacraments.
    Yes, these times can be very, very confusing but glad you are using valid priests now! Note that we must use priests for our needs, all priests, some are good priests and some might be not so good. But that's what we do, we use them, we use them for what only they can do for us and for what we need, namely, the Mass and the sacraments. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #41 on: March 07, 2020, 05:34:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on March 07, 2020, 11:30:54 AM
    So the Charism of Truth does not remain among Bishop Athanasius, Cardinal Burke etc?

    Then where does it remain? That's the question, isn't it? My view is it includes, +A, +B etc.

    You can name two in the NO hierarchy who aren't flaming heretics?  That's comforting.

    +Burke at one point approved a transgender "nun" and +Schneider is known for his ecuмenism.  This is the best the "Charism of Truth" group can produce?

    You could probably count the number of prelates who would be recognizable as Catholic to St. Pius X on one hand.  You could count the number whom St. Pius X would not immediately defrock with no hands.
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    Offline Parasitic Eww

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #42 on: March 07, 2020, 06:07:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on March 06, 2020, 07:56:31 PM
    For some reason to believe there are no longer Apostolic Bishops seems a bridge too far. For some reason I am not able to believe the Church is now comprised of a few thousand sedevacantists with irregular orders, mostly in the United States. It seems to me that what everyone believes is the Catholic Church really is the Catholic Church, even if most of the Bishops and priests and laity are heretics.

    This is why the privationist thesis makes more sense to me.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #43 on: March 07, 2020, 07:21:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 07, 2020, 05:34:55 PM
    You can name two in the NO hierarchy who aren't flaming heretics?  That's comforting.

    +Burke at one point approved a transgender "nun" and +Schneider is known for his ecuмenism.  This is the best the "Charism of Truth" group can produce?

    You could probably count the number of prelates who would be recognizable as Catholic to St. Pius X on one hand.  You could count the number whom St. Pius X would not immediately defrock with no hands.
    This ^^^^^
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #44 on: March 07, 2020, 09:54:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on March 07, 2020, 05:34:55 PM
    You can name two in the NO hierarchy who aren't flaming heretics?  That's comforting.

    +Burke at one point approved a transgender "nun" and +Schneider is known for his ecuмenism.  This is the best the "Charism of Truth" group can produce?

    You could probably count the number of prelates who would be recognizable as Catholic to St. Pius X on one hand.  You could count the number whom St. Pius X would not immediately defrock with no hands.
    I'm not sure on that last bit.  I mean you're right, if +Schneider and +Burke were as liberal as they are right now in 1910, you'd probably be right . But as a friend of mine pointed out to me recently, sometimes the direction one is moving in is more important than the exact position taken.  I think you have to somewhat take into account what these guys are dealing with.  They aren't resisting pressure from a St Pius X type to be more conservative, but a push from the left.  

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