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Author Topic: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"  (Read 3141 times)

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Offline An even 7

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Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2020, 04:34:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: jerm on March 06, 2020, 04:30:11 PM
    I don't see how the entire Church could be wrong about it.
    Are you saying the entire Church teaches BOD/BOB?
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    An Even7

    Offline jerm

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #16 on: March 06, 2020, 04:44:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even 7 on March 06, 2020, 04:34:48 PM
    Are you saying the entire Church teaches BOD/BOB?
    In terms of the Bishops, who are the successors to the Apostles, yes.
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    Offline An even 7

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #17 on: March 06, 2020, 04:49:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: jerm on March 06, 2020, 04:44:28 PM
    In terms of the Bishops, who are the successors to the Apostles, yes.
    Apostolicity remains in tact through Holy Orders, not necessarily just Bishoprics. As long as one person with valid Holy Orders retains the true faith, Apostolicity is preserved.
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    An Even7

    Offline jerm

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #18 on: March 06, 2020, 04:55:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even 7 on March 06, 2020, 04:49:05 PM
    Apostolicity remains in tact through Holy Orders, not necessarily just Bishoprics. As long as one person with valid Holy Orders retains the true faith, Apostolicity is preserved.
    But the Bishops are the successors to the Apostles. If there are none left and, say, just a priest and some followers, then the faith is lost. A priest cannot ordain other priests or make new Bishops, so the Church as a whole would have defected. The Church would have no government left at all, just a few local churches.
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    Offline jerm

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #19 on: March 06, 2020, 05:01:36 PM »
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    • Satis Cognitum seems to support that Bishops are necessary for the Church here: 
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    Offline An even 7

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #20 on: March 06, 2020, 05:45:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: jerm on March 06, 2020, 05:01:36 PM
    Satis Cognitum seems to support that Bishops are necessary for the Church here:
    If anything, this quote from Satis Cognitum proves the opposite. The authority of Peter is perpetuated by the Pope in the same way that the authority of the apostles is perpetuated by the Bishops. It logically follows that, if the Church can exist without a Pope, it can exist without Bishops. The authority of both is unaffected by the lack of individuals occupying the office.
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    An Even7

    Offline jerm

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #21 on: March 06, 2020, 06:08:24 PM »
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    • I'll let other people try responding. I don't agree with your interpretation of the quote at all, but maybe others will change my mind.

    Regardless, Lord have mercy, and please pray for me, brothers (and sisters).
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    Offline An even 7

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #22 on: March 06, 2020, 07:11:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: jerm on March 06, 2020, 06:08:24 PM
    I'll let other people try responding. I don't agree with your interpretation of the quote at all, but maybe others will change my mind.

    Regardless, Lord have mercy, and please pray for me, brothers (and sisters).
    The main point is that it doesn't prove there can't be Bishops. While we're on the subject, what is your interpretation? Do you have one or do you just not like mine?
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    An Even7

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #23 on: March 06, 2020, 07:14:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: An even 7 on March 06, 2020, 05:45:37 PM
    If anything, this quote from Satis Cognitum proves the opposite. The authority of Peter is perpetuated by the Pope in the same way that the authority of the apostles is perpetuated by the Bishops. It logically follows that, if the Church can exist without a Pope, it can exist without Bishops. The authority of both is unaffected by the lack of individuals occupying the office.
    I'm not even a sede, but the fact that even during normal times the Church can exist without a pope for a short time, whereas the church has NEVER been without bishops... yeah...  I don't buy this.

    IMO if the Catholic Church really had no bishops at all, there would be no point in believing in it as its ecclesiology would be de facto Protestant.
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    Offline An even 7

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #24 on: March 06, 2020, 07:31:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on March 06, 2020, 07:14:09 PM
    I'm not even a sede, but the fact that even during normal times the Church can exist without a pope for a short time, whereas the church has NEVER been without bishops... yeah...  I don't buy this.

    IMO if the Catholic Church really had no bishops at all, there would be no point in believing in it as its ecclesiology would be de facto Protestant.
    Maybe, Maybe not. All I know is that there is no teaching which states there has to be a Bishop. One thing is for sure though, just because something hasn't happened in the Church before, doesn't mean it can't happen now or in the future.
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    An Even7

    Offline Matto

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #25 on: March 06, 2020, 07:56:31 PM »
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    • Um this thread is interesting. I have come to be more forgiving of the mainstream Church. For some reason to believe there are no longer Apostolic Bishops seems a bridge too far. For some reason I am not able to believe the Church is now comprised of a few thousand sedevacantists with irregular orders, mostly in the United States. It seems to me that what everyone believes is the Catholic Church really is the Catholic Church, even if most of the Bishops and priests and laity are heretics. Part of the reason is the apostolate of the sedevacantists, which I think is offputting, and does not come across as the faithful remnant to me. Are Cekada and Dolan and Sanborn and their few followers really supposed to be the One True Church? The biggest change in my new liberal trad stance is that I now work under the assumption that Novus Ordo sacraments are valid. So I started going to Novus Ordo Eucharistic Adoration to pray with Jesus who I think is really there. If most of the people there are heretics Jesus might want me to be there with Him. I generally avoid the Novus Ordo Mass (I do not attend my local Novus Ordo Mass on weekdays or holy days) and still attend my SSPX chapel, but I am a liberal now. 
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    Offline roscoe

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #26 on: March 06, 2020, 10:25:22 PM »
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    •  :popcorn:
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    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline donkath

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #27 on: March 06, 2020, 11:54:38 PM »
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    • Quote
    On the one hand, I can see where this perspective comes from. On the other, I don't see how the entire Church could be wrong about it. The Church is a visible society, but if there is a Bishop rejecting BoD out there, then he isn't preserving the Church's unity whatsoever.

    The Entire Chosen People rejected Christ absolutely when he was able to be visibly heard, touched and proved His Divinity.  He spoke ‘de fide’ then just as does today in the de fide countil of Trent.   Because He did not measure up to THEIR idea of the only kind of Messiah they would accept so it is today.

    The Entire Chosen People rejected Christ absolutely when he was able to be visibly heard, touched and proved His Divinity.  He spoke ‘de fide’ then just as does today in the de fide countil of Trent.   Because He did not measure up to THEIR idea of the only kind of Messiah they would accept so it is today.

    Christ, in His Church is the same today as He was when he walked the earth.  If He does not measure up to what our idea of God should be like great numbers of Cardinals, Bishops and Priests reject His teaching…His very Word -like the Sanhedrin of old.  In doing so - they reject him just as he was rejected then.  And like the crowd then, we follow the crowd now.

    The simple fact is that without the Sacrament of Baptism the stain of original sin remains on the soul.  Every true Catholic knows that. Even in today’s crisis when in doubt of a priest’s faculties, what mother or father today believes their babies are baptised without the Sacrament?  Does anyone truly believe that their baby is simply baptised by their parents’ desiring it for them?   At the very least they would have to conditionally baptise their babies with water and saying, ‘I baptise thee in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.’

    The choice in the end is having the courage to accept the truth and witness to it as did the little boy when he said that the Emperor has no clothes.


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    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #28 on: March 07, 2020, 12:02:50 AM »
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    • The Oath Against Modernism itself assures us the Charism of Truth shall always remain in the Succession of the Episcopacy from the Apostles until the end of time: "I firmly hold, then, and shall hold to my dying breath the belief of the Fathers in the charism of truth, which certainly is, was, and always will be in the succession of the episcopacy from the apostles."

    Apostolic Succession involves not only the transmission of Holy Orders but also of Episcopal Authority or Jurisdiction as the CE explains.

    Bishop Athanasius Schneider, Cardinal Burke etc, are e.g. of Bishops today who believe explicit faith in Christ is necessary for salvation.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are any Bishops "Feenyites?"
    « Reply #29 on: March 07, 2020, 07:21:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on March 07, 2020, 12:02:50 AM
    The Oath Against Modernism itself assures us the Charism of Truth shall always remain in the Succession of the Episcopacy from the Apostles until the end of time...


    Yeah, Xavier, but no Traditional Catholic believes that this "Charism of Truth" remains in the Novus Ordo hierarchy.  It's obvious that it is not.

    I agree with your principle, and it's a principle you hold in common with sedevacantists, but based on this principle we conclude that these men are not the hierarchy.

    R&R reject your principle and so claim that these men are legitimate despite not having this Charism.
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