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Author Topic: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again  (Read 2316 times)

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Offline ByzCat3000

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Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2019, 06:59:17 PM »
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  • Well, there has to be a "by".  Absence of some "by" means Pelagianism.  They must be doing something to actively please God and cooperate with his grace unto salvation.  In other words, a Protestant can attain to salvation by faithfully practicing his Protestantism.  And if that's the case, he has a right to do so.  It's an awful theological mess.
    I'd think the by, if we use Lefebvre's logic, would be those elements of Protestantism that are in agreement with Catholicism (obviously there are many), and invincible ignorance, while such certainly does not save, would shield the person from being *automatically* damned solely for his error, such that those elements of Protestantism which are in agreement with Catholicism *could* lead to his salvation if he's perfectly contrite for his mortal sins.  Obviously without the sacraments he'd have a way harder time, and I think the danger to souls that would result from allowing him to *openly* practice or to proselytize would be greater than the benefit to his soul caused by doing so, nevermind the fact that God's glory is more important than the salvation of any particular Protestant anyway.

    Lemme ask this, say for the sake of argument that you agreed with Lefebvre on BOD.  How would you then defend Digniatis Humane as being in actual line with Tradition?

    Offline MiserereMei

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #16 on: September 06, 2019, 09:06:57 PM »
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  • I honestly don't know if there is something wrong with the English interpretation of Baptism of Desire. Applying the letter of the law without understanding the spirit kills.. "erat lux vera quae inluminat omnem hominem venientem in mundum". God enlightens every single person that comes into this world. For souls that do not know Christ, no fault of their own, and follow the Natural Law (very difficult in our times but not impossible), they are saved. It's not because they follow their religion. Their religion would need to follow the natural law to that effect. Souls only condemn themselves because of their own faults (principle of Justice).
    (You can tell English is not my first language. I had never heard of Feeneysm until I moved to the US).


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #17 on: September 06, 2019, 11:53:39 PM »
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  • Whether or not strictly infallible, they're clearly binding on Catholics.


    Right. As the CE article says regarding the Syllabus: "Exteriorly they may neither in word nor in writing oppose it's contents."

    The Archbishop's public comments - in a considered and published written work - oppose its contents. 

    And about the only Catholics (as an identifiable group) I know of that have objected to and fought against this are "Feeneyites" and those sympathetic to them.

    Go to Twitter for example and see how many Sedes or R & R or any non-Feeneyites cry out against the extravagances of BOD - don't hold your breath. But you'll find lots of condemnations of Feeneyites. 

    The inevitable misapplication and misreading of the infallibility of the Church (properly understood as when She is teaching something as part of the deposit of faith - no matter the form of expression, solemn or ordinary) ended up, when mixed with the natural instinct of any monarchial institution or society, in an also almost inevitable turning of obedience into a mind-numbed obeisance. And ironically the solemn and infallible voice of the Church became subservient to the fallible expressions of the hierarchy, which were (and now are by most Novus Ordites) followed slavishly. So "Feeneyites" are condemned with citations to non-infallible "teachings" and teachings contrary to infallible Truth are ignored to spawn and wreak havoc. 

    And now here we are over 50 years after V2 in this dark hole. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #18 on: September 07, 2019, 06:54:28 AM »
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  • How is any Protestant invincibly ignorant of Catholicism?  Have you ever listened to Protestant sermons?  Half their religion is based on trashing catholic doctrine.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #19 on: September 07, 2019, 10:40:37 AM »
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  • How is any Protestant invincibly ignorant of Catholicism?  Have you ever listened to Protestant sermons?  Half their religion is based on trashing catholic doctrine.
    The only invincibly ignorant Protestants are little children, but theologically speaking they are effectively Catholics, so they're irrelevant to the discussion I suppose. 


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #20 on: September 07, 2019, 03:53:15 PM »
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  • How is any Protestant invincibly ignorant of Catholicism?  Have you ever listened to Protestant sermons?  Half their religion is based on trashing catholic doctrine.
    Nowadays it seems harder to believe with the internet, but in the past certainly someone could've only heard lies about Catholicism (in, say, Calvin's Geneva) and had no real opportunity to be corrected on said lies.

    Even today I think it might be possible, but admittedly that would probably take a looser notion of invincible ignorance, which I'm apprehensive about, but I don't feel qualified to say who is and who isn't for certain either.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #21 on: September 07, 2019, 04:32:42 PM »
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  • Quote
    Nowadays it seems harder to believe with the internet, but in the past certainly someone could've only heard lies about Catholicism (in, say, Calvin's Geneva) and had no real opportunity to be corrected on said lies.
    I don't think so.  At the time of Calvin, the entire culture of Europe was catholic; there was no getting away from it.  Protestantism was in its infancy and even Luther/Calvin still held many catholic views (i.e. Luther still prayed to Our Lady, and believed that Mass was a true sacrifice).  Geneva was in Switzerland, smack dab in the middle of europe.  No one is going to be 100% insulated from catholicism in Switzerland.

    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #22 on: September 08, 2019, 05:34:56 AM »
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  • I don't think so.  At the time of Calvin, the entire culture of Europe was catholic; there was no getting away from it.  Protestantism was in its infancy and even Luther/Calvin still held many catholic views (i.e. Luther still prayed to Our Lady, and believed that Mass was a true sacrifice).  Geneva was in Switzerland, smack dab in the middle of europe.  No one is going to be 100% insulated from catholicism in Switzerland.
    I mean, most of the serf class never travelled farther than the next village over in their lives. I can't imagine the urban peasantry travelling much farther either unless they worked for traders. If you lived in post-Calvin Geneva there's a good chance the only Catholics you ever met were ones being burned at the stake.

    Go beyond that, to 1700s Sweden say. What would some Swedish farmer in Uppland know about Catholicism other than that it was a religion practiced by a bunch of Frenchmen, Italians and Bavarians hundreds or thousands of miles away? 

    I'm not arguing they were saved, but I don't think they'd have had any chances to learn about Catholicism from Catholics. They'd have to hope for some freak miracle like a missionary sneaking his way through Sweden in disguise, just like how some tribesman would have to hope for the freak miracle of a missionary stumbling upon his tribe in who knows where. So only by God's intervention, but then I suppose all salvation is by divine intervention regardless. 


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #23 on: September 08, 2019, 06:35:37 PM »
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  • I mean, most of the serf class never travelled farther than the next village over in their lives. I can't imagine the urban peasantry travelling much farther either unless they worked for traders. If you lived in post-Calvin Geneva there's a good chance the only Catholics you ever met were ones being burned at the stake.

    Go beyond that, to 1700s Sweden say. What would some Swedish farmer in Uppland know about Catholicism other than that it was a religion practiced by a bunch of Frenchmen, Italians and Bavarians hundreds or thousands of miles away?

    I'm not arguing they were saved, but I don't think they'd have had any chances to learn about Catholicism from Catholics. They'd have to hope for some freak miracle like a missionary sneaking his way through Sweden in disguise, just like how some tribesman would have to hope for the freak miracle of a missionary stumbling upon his tribe in who knows where. So only by God's intervention, but then I suppose all salvation is by divine intervention regardless.
    I’d never argue that someone outside the visible church “was saved”.  At most Id say in certain cases it’s a possibility, but I’d never presume