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Author Topic: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again  (Read 2309 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
« on: September 05, 2019, 03:36:31 PM »
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  • Quote

    The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire.  This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.


    The error consists in thinking that they are saved by their religion.  They are saved in their religion but not by it. There is no Buddhist church in heaven, no Protestant church. This is perhaps hard to accept, but it is the truth. I did not found the Church, but rather Our Lord the Son of God.  As priests we must state the truth.



    I know we've been through this here a thousand times or so, but these statements of the Archbishop's popped into my mind again when I was reading the following condemned proposition of Pius IX in the Syllabus of Errors:


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    DZ 1716 - In the worship of any religion whatever, men can find the way to eternal salvation, and can attain eternal salvation.


    If one is a Muslim that is "saved in their religion" how on earth can they not be described as "in the worship" of the Islam religion? How does one make a credible argument that the Archbishop's statement does not express an error condemned by Pius IX in the Syllabus?

    It would be hard to think of a better example of maintaining that someone can be in another religion while at the same time trying to hold "on paper" to the dogma of  "no salvation outside of the Church" than the Archbishop's "they are saved in their religion, but not by it."  

    Sorry to dredge this up again  . . . no, I'm not really.

    You can't get away from it, it always pushes itself in your face at some time or other, whether you're doing some devotional reading or study, listening to a sermon of a "Trad" cleric, etc.

    You can say what you want about Father Feeney but God Bless him! He could smell a rat, and wouldn't tolerate it in his home. And he understood the inexorable and logical ramifications of the necessity of the dogmas of the necessity of the CATHOLIC FAITH for salvation and NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

    DR





    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #1 on: September 06, 2019, 04:34:28 PM »
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  • Leaving aside whether Pius IX and Lefebvre can be reconciled here, is Pius IX's statements in Syllabus of Errors ex cathedra?


    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #2 on: September 06, 2019, 05:12:50 PM »
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  • Leaving aside whether Pius IX and Lefebvre can be reconciled here, is Pius IX's statements in Syllabus of Errors ex cathedra?

    I don't know, and don't really have an opinion. Here's the CE on it:


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    The binding power of the Syllabus of Pius IX is differently explained by Catholic theologians. All are of the opinion that many of the propositions are condemned if not in the Syllabus, then certainly in other final decisions of the infallible teaching authority of the Church, for instance in the Encyclical "Quanta Cura". There is no agreement, however, on the question whether each thesis condemned in the Syllabus is infallibly false, merely because it is condemned in the Syllabus. Many theologians are of the opinion that to the Syllabus as such an infallible teaching authority is to be ascribed, whether due to an ex-cathedra decision by the pope or to the subsequent acceptance by the Church. Others question this. So long as Rome has not decided the question, everyone is free to follow the opinion he chooses. Even should the condemnation of many propositions not possess that unchangeableness peculiar to infallible decisions, nevertheless the binding force of the condemnation in regard to all the propositions is beyond doubt. For the Syllabus, as appears from the official communication of Cardinal Antonelli, is a decision given by the pope speaking as universal teacher and judge to Catholics the world over. All Catholics, therefore, are bound to accept the Syllabus. Exteriorly they may neither in word nor in writing oppose its contents; they must also assent to it interiorly.


    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14368b.htm



    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #3 on: September 06, 2019, 05:46:29 PM »
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  • Whether or not strictly infallible, they're clearly binding on Catholics.

    If one keeps questioning the authority of this kind of teaching, then why isn't it OK to be a Modernist, since Modernism was not condemned infallibly either?  Where does it end?  This narrow view of infallibility would turn the Church into the free-for-all that the Conciliar establishment is.

    Do we Traditional Catholics just happen to all agree with St. Pius X's condemnation of Modernism?  Is that all there is to it?

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #4 on: September 06, 2019, 05:50:03 PM »
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  • Whether or not strictly infallible, they're clearly binding on Catholics.

    If one keeps questioning the authority of this kind of teaching, then why isn't it OK to be a Modernist, since Modernism was not condemned infallibly either?  Where does it end?  This narrow view of infallibility would turn the Church into the free-for-all that the Conciliar establishment is.

    Do we Traditional Catholics just happen to all agree with St. Pius X's condemnation of Modernism?  Is that all there is to it?
    Good point.  For R + Rs, the encyclicals, etc. of the Conciliar Popes and Vatican II would seem to be similarly "binding."  To be clear, I'm less concerned with the "result" here as the logic on which the result is based.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #5 on: September 06, 2019, 05:52:07 PM »
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  • Yes, tragically, Archbishop Lefebvre had been misled on this subject.  EENS does not mean no salvation except by means of the Church, but, rather, no salvation except IN the Church.  Now +Lefebvre claims that by this invisible Baptism of Desire they are, unbeknownst to themselves, in the Church.  How is this a lick different from Karl Rathner's Anonymous Christian theology?

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #6 on: September 06, 2019, 06:02:46 PM »
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  • Yes, tragically, Archbishop Lefebvre had been misled on this subject.  EENS does not mean no salvation except by means of the Church, but, rather, no salvation except IN the Church.  Now +Lefebvre claims that by this invisible Baptism of Desire they are, unbeknownst to themselves, in the Church.  How is this a lick different from Karl Rathner's Anonymous Christian theology?
    Its arguments like these that make me very sympathetic to the "Vatican II is reconcilable, but the way it was applied was a total mess" response to the crisis.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #7 on: September 06, 2019, 06:04:02 PM »
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  • Rahner was actually rejected by the more radical liberal heretics because he clung to the need for Christ in salvation.

    Rahner actually formulated his theory based on ...

    MAJOR:  Christ is essential to salvation.
    MINOR:  Those who do not know Christ must have a path to be saved in their state.
    CONCLUSION:  Those who do not know Christ must somehow participate in an anonymous Christianity.

    Rahner maintained the major, unlike his liberal-heretic critics.

    ALL of this "reasoning" proceeds from the emotional need to accept the minor.  This is a completely made-up premise that has led to all the EENS-undermining theological formulations, including that, alas, of Archbishop Lefebvre.

    And, yes, ironically, ALL OF THE VATICAN II errors rely on this exact ecclesiology.  If these Buddhists can be saved, they must be definition be within the Church.  So now you have a new inclusive Church that includes not only Catholics but all these anonymous parts, Buddhists, Prots, Muslims, etc.  What is that if not the Vatican II ecclesiology?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #8 on: September 06, 2019, 06:06:08 PM »
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  • Its arguments like these that make me very sympathetic to the "Vatican II is reconcilable, but the way it was applied was a total mess" response to the crisis.

    Oh, indeed.  I have repeatedly said that if I believed in the ecclesiology held by most Traditonal Catholics, I would without a question hold Vatican II as clearly reconcilable with Tradition ... even if many of its statements were inopportune given the climate they were made in.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #9 on: September 06, 2019, 06:10:08 PM »
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  • Oh, indeed.  I have repeatedly said that if I believed in the ecclesiology held by most Traditonal Catholics, I would without a question hold Vatican II as clearly reconcilable with Tradition ... even if many of its statements were inopportune given the climate they were made in.
    Its less that I have a particularly strong emotional need to reject the strictest possible position (though I realize, for many, it is) so much as it seems just more probable to me that there's a reconciliation, than it is that even the trad clergy were/are crypto-modernists on this point.  

    Dignitatis Humane honestly seems more difficult to reconcile with The Syllabus logically.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #10 on: September 06, 2019, 06:13:04 PM »
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  • Oh, indeed.  I have repeatedly said that if I believed in the ecclesiology held by most Traditonal Catholics, I would without a question hold Vatican II as clearly reconcilable with Tradition ... even if many of its statements were inopportune given the climate they were made in.

    But obviously I can't.  I've read too much Church teaching and too much from the Church Fathers and Doctors.  This is not Catholic teaching to say that the Church is composed of all manner of non-Catholic and even infidel.  This was rejected as heretical in the early Church ... as Rahner himself famously admitted.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #11 on: September 06, 2019, 06:16:43 PM »
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  • Dignitatis Humane honestly seems more difficult to reconcile with The Syllabus logically.

    Yes, but even that follows logically from the new ecclesiology.

    People have a right to please God and to save their souls.  If people please God and save their souls by following their even-erroneous consciences, then they have a right to follow their even-erroneous consciences.  Once you subjectivize salvation, then Religious Liberty simply follows as a logical consequence.  If a Prot saves his soul by following his false heretical beliefs, then I could actually be interfering with his salvation by trying to pressure hi to abandon and compromise those things which he believes are necessary for salvation.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #12 on: September 06, 2019, 06:24:38 PM »
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  • Yes, but even that follows logically from the new ecclesiology.

    People have a right to please God and to save their souls.  If people please God and save their souls by following their even-erroneous consciences, then they have a right to follow their even-erroneous consciences.  Once you subjectivize salvation, then Religious Liberty simply follows as a logical consequence.  If a Prot saves his soul by following his false heretical beliefs, then I could actually be interfering with his salvation by trying to pressure hi to abandon and compromise those things which he believes are necessary for salvation.
    Well with +Lefebvre at least, the word "by" would be false.  It would be more like "despite."

    I think even if this sort of thing is possible, it wouldn't make much sense to hold out high hopes for the salvation of a Protestant who's practicing Protestantism in the midst of a faithful Catholic nation.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #13 on: September 06, 2019, 06:29:54 PM »
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  • But obviously I can't.  I've read too much Church teaching and too much from the Church Fathers and Doctors.  This is not Catholic teaching to say that the Church is composed of all manner of non-Catholic and even infidel.  This was rejected as heretical in the early Church ... as Rahner himself famously admitted.
    I'm open to changing my mind, but I'd need to do more study to see that the strictest possible formulation of EENS (with no exceptions) was the unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers.  Right now it seems to me that Augustine and Justin Martyr hold to a formulation that is not quite so strict, but I could be misreading them, and even if I am not, both of them are on their own fallible, and also missing certain steps from the current formulations (Justin Martyr's only definitively covers people like Socrates who were born and died before Christ, while Augustine's allowances for certain Donatists is still a far cry from allowances for Muslims or Hindus.  I'm really reluctant to make these kinds of calls as I'm not an expert on patristic theology.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and BOD . . . Again
    « Reply #14 on: September 06, 2019, 06:40:07 PM »
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  • Well with +Lefebvre at least, the word "by" would be false.  It would be more like "despite."

    Well, there has to be a "by".  Absence of some "by" means Pelagianism.  They must be doing something to actively please God and cooperate with his grace unto salvation.  In other words, a Protestant can attain to salvation by faithfully practicing his Protestantism.  And if that's the case, he has a right to do so.  It's an awful theological mess.