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Author Topic: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?  (Read 8579 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2024, 11:26:21 PM »
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  • Also, it is a deliberate act of Providence that we have canonized Saints who received BOB-BOD precisely in order to prove their validity.

    For Anthonypadua; Those quotes do not specify or exclude any of the forms of Baptism. The one from Pope Eugene is talking about the merit of sacrifices which, as he says, would be of no avail to someone who does not qualify for any of the form of Baptism.

    2nd Anthony; Same as Stubborn above.

    3rd Anthony; Strange coincidence that the Church has not condemned BOD-BOB. We are near the end time now. This should have been cleared up by now if it was false. VII (deliberately) misinterprets everything, even what's not otherwise in question, like the General Priesthood of the Faithful vs. the sacramental Priesthood.
    It was providence that allowed Benedict 12th to define that all the Saints of the new testament have received baptism. We also have saints who were miraculously baptised before death with water, one saint was even denied entry to heaven and was brought back to life just to be baptized.

    Pope Eugene is very clear, if one isn't united to the Church then bƖσσdshɛd does not save them. To say that baptism can have forms without actually using the water is nothing more than cope.

    I also left out numerous other quotes like that of Pope Leo the great at chalcedon.
    Quote
    St. Leo the Great at the Council of Chalcedon, St. Leo said the Blood of Redemption can't be separated from the water of baptism.
    Quote
    "It is he, Jesus Christ who has come through water and blood, not in water only, but in water and blood. And because the Spirit is truth, it is the Spirit who testifies. For there are three who give testimony–Spirit and water and blood. And the three are one. In other words, the Spirit of sanctification and the blood of redemption and the water of baptism. These three are one and remain indivisible. None of them is separable from its link with the others."
    it's also a strange coincidence that the Church has never explicitly defined BoD and BoB as forms for baptism despite the numerous opportunities at councils like Florence and Trent.

    Your points do not address the concerns and even twists that Florence meant.


    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #16 on: February 08, 2024, 11:56:05 PM »
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  • "If any one asserts, that this sin of Adam,--which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propagation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, --is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, santification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema:
    Assuming we agree on the first part (ie, the merit of our Lord Jesus Christ is necessary) those who hold BOD/BOB must state that people saved by BOD/BOB were saved by Jesus Christ but the merit of Jesus Christ was not "applied by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church". That position is anathema...
    I pray I've helped here

    No Joe, you have added to the confusion. That is false logic, big time, as Shrewd Operator demonstrates.
    The position that is anathematised is to deny that the sacrament of baptism rightly administered applies the said merit of Jesus Christ to both adults and infants, not to affirm that those same merits may be applied to souls by Our Lord using means other than the sacramental rite. 


    Offline Shrewd Operator

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #17 on: February 09, 2024, 12:07:18 AM »
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  • Well to start with,

    Of course all of the Saints of the New Testament have received Baptism, the question is how?


    Daniel was preserved from the lions, but St. Ignatius was not. One proved his sanctity by defying nature physically, the other by defying it spiritually. The fact that some people are miraculously baptized with water does not mean that others are not miraculously baptized by the Spirit.

    That goes to the next point, you have to qualify for BOD BEFORE you can qualify for BOB. You can't die a martyr without Faith and Grace. Such Faith and Grace would precede and follow from BOD. Therefore, all who qualify for BOB first obtain BOD.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #18 on: February 09, 2024, 04:55:24 AM »
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  • I always find it a type of anomaly that the only promoters of a BOD are those who are themselves sacramentally baptized. And that although God provided the water, the minister and the time for them (and for all who ever were and ever will get baptized), that God purposely does not provide for a select few, and always due to "unforeseen" circuмstance. That's simply crazy talk imo.

    Personally I have never come across a catechumen who promotes or accepts the idea of a BOD. Truth be told, the ones I've known despise the whole idea, they don't trust it at all, they want the sacrament and want it now! I have only known catechumens who out of their fear of dying before they could receive the sacrament, were immediately and constantly anxious to receive the sacrament asap as soon as they learned it was the first requirement to become a Catholic and member of the Church. I've been told by them that they lose sleep over it and that their constant prayer is for God to not take them before they can get baptized.

    I believe that the idea of a BOD/BOB can be very convenient for the living, but not at all for the dying.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #19 on: February 09, 2024, 05:45:19 AM »
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  • I do love the thread title.  "Apparently ..."

    ... as if after about 30 200-page threads this isn't obvious, and not just apparent ... :laugh1:


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #20 on: February 09, 2024, 05:46:56 AM »
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  • Well to start with,

    Of course all of the Saints of the New Testament have received Baptism, the question is how?

    Several Church Fathers held that when the dead were raised back to life after the Resurrection of Our Lord, it was precisely so they could be baptized ... not just as some kind of spectacle.  There's solid evidence for this.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #21 on: February 09, 2024, 05:49:16 AM »
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  • It was providence that allowed Benedict 12th to define that all the Saints of the new testament have received baptism. We also have saints who were miraculously baptised before death with water, one saint was even denied entry to heaven and was brought back to life just to be baptized.

    Pope Eugene is very clear, if one isn't united to the Church then bƖσσdshɛd does not save them. To say that baptism can have forms without actually using the water is nothing more than cope.

    I also left out numerous other quotes like that of Pope Leo the great at chalcedon. it's also a strange coincidence that the Church has never explicitly defined BoD and BoB as forms for baptism despite the numerous opportunities at councils like Florence and Trent.

    Your points do not address the concerns and even twists that Florence meant.

    Don't forget Pope St. Siricius.  Lots of anti-BoD evidence that the BoDers ignore.  The cite only those things they believe support their case, but ignore the rest ... the surest sign of intellectual dishonest, as we can see in the CMRI article posted by Matthew.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #22 on: February 09, 2024, 05:51:04 AM »
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  • For Lad; Prot, infidel, heretic, schismatic, and non-Catholics
     
                Protestants, heretics and schismatics already baptize validly in most cases. Infidels (and non-Catholics) that meet the criteria cease to be infidels in God's eyes.

    ... and yet this doesn't stop BoDers from applying BoD (redefined as Faith of Desire) even to the validly baptized.  Obviously BoD proper applies only to infidels (like the Hindus in Tibet, Jєωs, Muslims ... and all those that most Trad clergy have explicitly stated could be saved).


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #23 on: February 09, 2024, 06:08:25 AM »
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  • Let's try to look at the objective evidence and start with the Church Fathers.  Dishonest articles like those by the CMRI, publishers of "The Salvation of those Outside the Church" ignore the Patristic evidence.  Father Laisney had the mendacious temerity to claim that there was universal Patristic consensus in favor of BoD.

    Hogwash.

    We have about 5-6 Church Fathers explicitly reject Baptism of Desire, and several more implicitly rejecting it.

    We only have 2 Patristic sources that allegedly accept it:  St. Ambrose and St. Augustine, and all subsequent BoD theory relies upon the "authority of Augustine and Ambrose".

    Well of these two, St. Augustine made some youthful speculation in favor, where after saying that he had gone back and forth on the question, stated that "I find ... [in favor of BoD]".  Hardly something taught with authority as if it were received Tradition and Revealed truth.  Unfortunately for those who rely on St. Augustine, he later retracted the theory, after his anti-Donatist and anti-Pelagian days, and issued some of the strongest anti-BoD statements in history.

    St. Ambrose also was on record explicitly rejecting Baptism of Desire.  What, then, of the apparent contradiction between that and his (ubiquitously-cited) Oration at the Funeral of Valentinian?  In that oration, St. Ambrose did NOT claim that Valentinian could be SAVED by his zeal / confession / desire, but stated that like unbaptized martyrs, he could be "washed but not crowned".  Crowning refers to entry into the Kingdom and Salvation.  So this too is a false authority.

    Pope St. Sulpicius explicitly and dogmatically taught and "each and every one" of those "desiring Baptism" would be lost if they didn't receive the Sacrament, or, rather, that they would forfeit the Kingdom and Glory (i.e. salvation and the Beatific Vision).

    Even Karl "Anonymous Christian" Rahner had the intellectual honestly (lacked by most BoD Trads) to admit that the Patristic consensus was heavily AGAINST salvation by Baptism of Desire ... despite WANTING to believe the contrary.

    There are only 2 ways to discern that some dogma/doctrine has been revealed:

    1) unanimous Patristic consensus

    2) some truth derives implicitly and necessarily from revealed premises

    We see a big fat negatory on the unanimous Patristic consensus.  In fact, the objective evidence shows the opposite.

    And NO ONE has ever demonstrated how BoD derives necessarily from other revealed truths.  We get long litanies of "Yep, BoD", "Yep, BoD" and ... "Augustine and Ambrose", "Augustine and Ambrose".  That's IT, and as we see that Augustine retracted, while St. Ambrose did not teach salvation by BoD, the whole thing rests on a fallacious house of cards.  St. Thomas came closest to providing some theological proof for it, but it was really more an explanation of how it worked than a proof of its existence.  He said that the Sacraments have visible and invisible aspects to them, and that in the case of BoD, you get the invisible without the visible.  That's not true of many Sacraments, in particular, of the character Sacraments.  There's no such thing as Holy Orders of Desire (despite how much St. Therese desired to be a priest) or Confirmation of Desire.  Those are two "character" Sacraments, where the character is an essential part of the grace of the Sacrament.  Well, Baptism is also a character-conferring Sacrament.  After BoD theory, the character was trivialized into a simple non-repeatability marker, a badge of honor that some in Heaven wore while others lacked, but which had no real effect.  But the Church Fathers made it clear that this seal, this crowning, i.e. the character of Baptism was required for entry into the Kingdom and Glory (i.e. the Beatific Vision) ... even if some like St. Ambrose held that the other aspect of the Sacrament of Baptism, namely, the remission of sins, could be had by confession / desire.

    Quote
    Father Jurgens (pre-V2 Patristic scholar): “If there were not a constant tradition in the Fathers that the Gospel message of ‘Unless a man be born again . . . etc.’ is to be taken absolutely, it would be easy to say that Our Savior simply did not see fit to mention the obvious exceptions of invincible ignorance and physical impossibility. But the tradition in fact is there, and it is likely enough to be so constant as to constitute revelation.” (Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers, Vol. 3, pp. 14-15, footnote 31, my italics)

    Quote
    “. . . we have to admit . . . that the testimony of the Fathers, with regard to the possibility of salvation for someone outside the Church, is very weak. Certainly even the ancient Church knew that the grace of God can be found also outside the Church and even before Faith. But the view that such divine grace can lead man to his final salvation without leading him first into the visible Church, is something, at any rate, which met with very little approval in the ancient Church. For, with reference to the optimistic views on the salvation of catechumens as found in many of the Fathers, it must be noted that such a candidate for baptism was regarded in some sense or other as already ‘Christianus,’ and also that certain Fathers, such as Gregory nαzιanzen and Gregory of Nyssa deny altogether the justifying power of love or of the desire for baptism. Hence it will be impossible to speak of a consensus dogmaticus in the early Church regarding the possibility of salvation for the non-baptized, and especially for someone who is not even a catechumen. In fact, even St. Augustine, in his last (anti-pelagian) period, no longer maintained the possibility of a baptism by desire.” (Rahner, Karl, Theological Investigations, Volume II, Man in the Church, translated by Karl H. Kruger, pp.40, 41, 57)

    So much for BoD being revealed and so much for Patristic evidence for BoD.

    After the Patristic era, St. Fulgentius, disciple of St. Augustine, rejected BoD, and that was the last any mention of it appears again in Catholic authors until the pre-scholastic period.

    To be continued with the Pre-Scholastics (Abelard, Hugh of St. Victor, Peter Lombard) ...

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #24 on: February 09, 2024, 07:33:30 AM »
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  • I always find it a type of anomaly that the only promoters of a BOD are those who are themselves sacramentally baptized. And that although God provided the water, the minister and the time for them (and for all who ever were and ever will get baptized), that God purposely does not provide for a select few, and always due to "unforeseen" circuмstance. That's simply crazy talk imo.

    Personally I have never come across a catechumen who promotes or accepts the idea of a BOD. Truth be told, the ones I've known despise the whole idea, they don't trust it at all, they want the sacrament and want it now! I have only known catechumens who out of their fear of dying before they could receive the sacrament, were immediately and constantly anxious to receive the sacrament asap as soon as they learned it was the first requirement to become a Catholic and member of the Church. I've been told by them that they lose sleep over it and that their constant prayer is for God to not take them before they can get baptized.

    I believe that the idea of a BOD/BOB can be very convenient for the living, but not at all for the dying.
    Yes, those who have already been baptised should really consider this perspective. It's also ridiculous that desire suffices. Does desire for marriage mean you are actually married? Is desire for children the same as actually having children? We might say desire for penance suffices but perfect contrition has several components and is not reliable, plus the person who CAN receive perfect contrition already has a mark on their soul, a non-baptised person has no mark.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #25 on: February 09, 2024, 07:43:24 AM »
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  • Sure, an article by the CMRI who also twice published an article "The Salvation of those Outside the Church", verbatim contradicting dogma. 
    Link to this article?  I know the Dimond Brothers speak of it, but I have never seen the contents.  I did find this post in a very old thread. The title ("Baptism of Desire and of Blood") of the article does not appear to be the one the DB's used ("The Salvation of Those Outside the Church").  It also appears that they never post any of the content:

    CMRI priest confirms their belief in salvation for non-Catholics - page 4 - The Feeneyism Ghetto - Catholic Info (cathinfo.com)
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #26 on: February 09, 2024, 07:55:40 AM »
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  • Several Church Fathers held that when the dead were raised back to life after the Resurrection of Our Lord, it was precisely so they could be baptized ... not just as some kind of spectacle.  There's solid evidence for this.
    I’m not intending to address anything else on the thread, just this specific point

    But on this particular, even if it is true, I don’t find it the most compelling argument since presumably not EVERY person who was saved before the new covenant is physically resurrected here and you don’t believe people in the OLD testament can’t be saved without water baptism 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #27 on: February 09, 2024, 08:38:34 AM »
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  • I’m not intending to address anything else on the thread, just this specific point

    But on this particular, even if it is true, I don’t find it the most compelling argument since presumably not EVERY person who was saved before the new covenant is physically resurrected here and you don’t believe people in the OLD testament can’t be saved without water baptism

    Who knows?  Some Church Fathers seem to think that they were baptized.  God could easily raise all the OT Just back to life, even if for a moment, to have an angel baptize them.  God could of course impart the baptismal character on the OT Just in an extraordinary manner, but there's also nothing stopping Him from raising them all back to life, having them baptized, and then enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  That character of Baptism is essential for the Beatific Vision, because it's precisely what imparts the supernatural faculty (which we lack by nature) to see God as He is.

    Dimond Brothers made a great video about all the Patristic opinion in favor of the OT just being raised back to life and Baptized.  I knew there was some out there, but had no idea there was so much in favor of that opinion.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #28 on: February 09, 2024, 08:42:43 AM »
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  • Here it is.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Apparently some reject BoB and BoD?
    « Reply #29 on: February 09, 2024, 08:58:26 AM »
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  • In addition, what would prevent God from having all those who were not lost, on account of having "Baptism of Desire", be baptized with water at the final Resurrection of the Dead, or even before?  Nothing.  He could easily do that.  He could even in theory do the same for infants who are currently now in a Limbo state.  There's very little about such detail that's every been defined by the Church, but there's absolutely no reason that God CANNOT bring the Sacrament to all His elect.  BoDers argue that we're constraining God by the Sacraments, while themselves constraining God by "impossibility", whereas for God there's no such thing.

    We have some stories of saints who raised the dead back to life in order to baptize them.  And God cannot do the same?