Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office  (Read 4763 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline saintbosco13

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 647
  • Reputation: +201/-311
  • Gender: Male
Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2017, 02:24:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    It's quite clearly a fake.


    Then what is your response to the rebuttal of the fake accusation in the original post? Please provide proof, not just your assumption.




    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6293
    • Reputation: +3327/-1937
    • Gender: Male
    Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office
    « Reply #16 on: February 20, 2017, 04:13:37 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Last Tradhican
    Quote from: saintbosco13
    It's great to finally see the Feeneyite heresy come to an end after all these years. What a catastrophe! How do we know it is finally extinguished? Here are some obvious signs:

    - For one, activity in this sub-forum has been drying up.



    So much for that "sign," you just killed it.


    Now you start a second thread. The pattern of Lover of Truth is obvious.



     
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Online ihsv

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 696
    • Reputation: +936/-118
    • Gender: Male
    Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office
    « Reply #17 on: February 20, 2017, 04:26:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The only thing he's after is driving traffic to his sorry excuse for a website (hence the link on the first thread).

    And trolling.

    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline Arvinger

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 585
    • Reputation: +296/-95
    • Gender: Male
    Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office
    « Reply #18 on: February 20, 2017, 04:57:04 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: saintbosco13
    Quote from: Arvinger

    What "implicit desire" means in context of these quotes from Saints is desire which is implicit from person's explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity and accepting teaching authority of the Catholic Church.....


    You telling us your personal view of what this doctrine means is the same as a Protestant telling us what a verse in Scripture means. It's absolutely meaningless. No one is interested in your private interpretation of a doctrine that the Church is already definitively clarified.

    Again you present no arguments whatsoever, just cheap ad hominem. I explained what "implicit desire" means in context, St. Thomas Aquinas taught that explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the Trinity is absolutely necessary for salvation and his teaching on implicit desire for baptism is consistent with that. He does not teach that people can be saved through BoD without faith in Christ while remaining in invincible ignorance. BoD can only apply to those with explicit faith in essential mysteries of the Catholic faith.

    And you have the audacity to speak about alleged "doctrine that the Church has definitively clarified". So, where has the Church defined that invincibly ignorant people can be saved  without faith in Christ and the Trinity? Nowhere. This view, just as the 1949 Holy Office letter, is totally heretical and denies  the Athanasian Creed, Cantate Domino and other dogmatic  pronouncements.

    "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
    (...)
    He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.
    (...)
    Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ."
    (Athanasian Creed)

    This is Catholic dogma, not the heretical teaching of the 1949 Holy Office letter.

    Offline OldMerry

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 239
    • Reputation: +200/-39
    • Gender: Male
    Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office
    « Reply #19 on: February 20, 2017, 08:31:34 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Honestly, Bosco, at this point you are just tho thilly.


    Offline saintbosco13

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 647
    • Reputation: +201/-311
    • Gender: Male
    Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office
    « Reply #20 on: February 20, 2017, 08:42:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Arvinger
    Quote from: saintbosco13
    Quote from: Arvinger

    What "implicit desire" means in context of these quotes from Saints is desire which is implicit from person's explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity and accepting teaching authority of the Catholic Church.....


    You telling us your personal view of what this doctrine means is the same as a Protestant telling us what a verse in Scripture means. It's absolutely meaningless. No one is interested in your private interpretation of a doctrine that the Church is already definitively clarified.


    Again you present no arguments whatsoever, just cheap ad hominem. I explained what "implicit desire" means in context, St. Thomas Aquinas taught that explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the Trinity is absolutely necessary for salvation and his teaching on implicit desire for baptism is consistent with that. He does not teach that people can be saved through BoD without faith in Christ while remaining in invincible ignorance. BoD can only apply to those with explicit faith in essential mysteries of the Catholic faith.



    My arguments were presented in the original post. If you hold a true position, why not address them? Rifling off several quotes that no one denies is just a diversion.



    Offline saintbosco13

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 647
    • Reputation: +201/-311
    • Gender: Male
    Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office
    « Reply #21 on: February 20, 2017, 08:47:21 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • People: If you hold a true position, provide your proof, not your opinion, on why the letter of the Holy Office is to be ignored. No one has done so yet. You've only replied with your opinions, and I have already given my rebuttal to those in the original post....they hold no water.

    Waiting...   :popcorn:


    Offline tdrev123

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 592
    • Reputation: +360/-139
    • Gender: Male
    Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office
    « Reply #22 on: February 20, 2017, 09:24:12 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Here ya go Bosco (LoT)


    I. Letter of the Holy Office

    On August 8, 1949 a Protocol letter came from the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office. It censored Father Feeney and the St. Benedict Center for teaching the dogma of no salvation outside the Church in the literal sense (this is, of course, how all defined dogmas must be understood). This letter was signed by Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani and was identified as Protocol No. 122/49. It was formally defective in that it was never published in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis (Acts of the Apostolic See). It is this register alone which confers an official and binding character on a docuмent. And even then, only so long as it meets the proper forms. Consequently, this letter is without any binding effect as an act of the Holy See or any type of official Church docuмent. Its status, then, can only be that of the opinion of one bishop, expressed in a letter to another bishop.

    Father Feeney was charged with disobedience.

    A. On October 25, 1952 Father Feeney was summoned to Rome for a hearing by Cardinal Pizzardo of the Holy Office, without being told why.

    B. On October 30, 1952 Father Feeney responded by requesting a statement of the charges being made against him — as required by Canon 1715. The summons by Card. Pizzardo, in violation of this canon, failed to either state the reason for the summons nor give a formal statement of charges against the defendant.

    C. According to Canon 1723, any proceeding based on citations as defective as the Cardinal’s letter, are subject to a complaint of nullity; and also renders a non-canonical summons null. The complaint of nullity is allowed under Canon 1680. A compliant of nullity was formally filed by Father Feeney. Yet, it was never responded to nor even acknowledged.

    D. Instead, on November 22, 1952 Father Feeney was threatened by Card. Pizzardo with an imposition of a canonical penalty, without stating the crime for which it is imposed. This is in violation of Canon 2225. Canon 1959 forbids penalties without a trial.

    E. On December 2, 1952 Father Feeney responded by asking with what he was being charged. Again, according to Canon 1715, this was not only Father Feeney’s right, but it was required for those who do the summoning. Also, Canons 1842 and 1843 required that the defendant be informed both of the charges against him and the nature of the proceedings to which he had been summoned.

    F. On January 9, 1953 Father Feeney was then threatened with automatic excommunication, ipso facto, if he failed to report to Rome by a certain date. This letter ignored Father Feeney’s points concerning Canon Laws requirements, for the offense alleged against Father Feeney — not obeying the summons to Rome — is a matter for a court or judge to weigh. He could not be excommunicated ipso facto because his action did not fall under the category of crimes meriting such a sentence.

    It should be noted that in the demands and threats from this member of the Roman Curia there were six direct violations of Canon Law. Both the appeals and canonical rights of Father Feeney were ignored and disregarded. Thus, this whole ordeal is not only suspect, but fallacious and immoral.

    II. Decree of Excommunication

    On February 13, 1953 a letter of excommunication was released, having no statement at all in it on doctrine, but had as its reason “grave disobedience of Church authority.” Though this letter was registered into the Acta, it is formally defective and thus invalid for the following reasons:

    1. The letter lacked the seal of the Holy Office and/or of the tribunal and was only signed by a notary. In fact, it bore no seal at all. The purpose of a seal is precisely to show the genuineness of a docuмent and its contents, and is required for validity.

    2. The letter lacked the signature of the judge of the tribunal which issued it; where, for validity, the judgment of a court of record must have.

    3. The decree was never properly communicated to the accused, which by law (and fairness) it must. It was first published in America in the newspapers.

    4. Father Feeney’s summons to Rome was uncanonical. Therefore, the summons was null and the penalties resulting from it are void.

    Canon 1723: “Renders an uncanonical summons null.”
    Canon 1959: “Forbids penalties without a trial.”
    5. There was never any canonical trial by a court concerning this case as proscribed by the disciplinary canons and decrees of the Council of Trent. Therefore, according to Canon Law, no valid penalties could result.

    6. As allowed by Canon Law, Father Feeney sent a letter dated July 16, 1953, entering a “Complaint of Nullity” against the decree of excommunication, to the Holy Father. It was never answered. Not only was Father Feeney not given a fair hearing, he was given no hearing at all, though required by Canon Law.

    III. The Reconciliation

    In 1972 Father Feeney was supposedly “reconciled” to the Church. If Father Feeney truly needed to be reconciled, he would have had to recant his position. Yet, he was never asked to do that. Anyone who is truly excommunicated for heresy must withdraw what they once held and proclaim belief in orthodoxy. But Father Feeney was never asked to take back or repent from his teaching on “Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.” Why not? Because those of the Archdiocesan establishment who arranged for the reconciliation knew the facts of the case and that Father Feeney was not excommunicated for heresy, but for disciplinary reasons.

    In fact, as part of the reconciliation ceremomony, Father Feeney was asked to profess one of the three Creeds of the Church. So, without any objection, he devoutly recited the Athanasian Creed. This ancient and venerable creed begins and ends with these solemn words:

    Whoever wishes to be saved needs above all else to hold the Catholic Faith; unless each one preserves this whole and entire, he will without a doubt perish in eternity. … This is the Catholic Faith; unless everyone believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

    Therefore, Father Leonard Feeney was not excommunicated for teaching that outside the Catholic Church and without submission to the Roman Pontiff no one can be saved. He couldn’t be, because the Church herself has dogmatically defined this.

    Rather, Father Leonard Feeney was unjustly treated and persecuted by fellow churchmen in positions of authority who abused the authority of the offices they held and brought up uncanonical charges of disobedience to this priest of Christ’s Church. We conclude, then, with the following summary of those binding and infallible definitions of the Church Magisterium concerning salvation that Father Feeney simply affirmed, taught, and defended as they were solemnly declared:

    Outside the Catholic Church there is positively no salvation (Lateran IV: Denz. 430; [802]; Pope Boniface VIII: Denz. 468-69; [870, 875]; Council of Florence: Denz. 714; [1351]; Pius IX:1716-17; [2916-17])
    The Sacrament of Baptism makes one a member of the Church (Florence: Denz. 696; [1314]; Council of Trent: Denz. 895; [1671]);
    Anyone not Baptized (sacramentally) is not a member of the Catholic Church (Trent: Denz. 895; [1671]), that is, he is not “truly incorporated into the Church”(Pope Leo IV- Council of Valence III: Denz. 324);
    Baptism is in water ONLY, the two (water and Baptism) are inseparable, and neither is separable from its link with the other (Pope St. Leo I: Tome-Council of Chalcedon I), and must be confessed as such (Council of Vienne: Denz. 482; [903]; Trent: Denz. 858; [1615]);
    The Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation (Pope Benedict XIV: Denz. 1470) for adults and for children alike (Vienne: Ddnz. 482; [903]), and is optional for NO ONE (Trent: Denz. 861; [1618]).
    The facts presented in this short article need to be made known so that the good name of Father Leonard Feeney, M.I.C.M., can be restored among Catholics and the immutable dogma of no salvation outside the Catholic Church be once again proclaimed from the housetops.


    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4670
    • Reputation: +1765/-353
    • Gender: Female
    Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office
    « Reply #23 on: February 20, 2017, 09:29:02 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Absolutely correct!!!

    Fr. Feeney had Marxist Communism working against him.  Fr. Feeney found a hot be of Marxist/Communism in the schools.  Those clergy did not wish to be found.I salute Fr. Feeney and all who supported him.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office
    « Reply #24 on: February 21, 2017, 06:08:49 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Forget it Seven, he is another fraud on a mission, ultimately he will come to regret it, we can only hope he comes to regret it before it's too late.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office
    « Reply #25 on: February 21, 2017, 07:09:29 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: An even Seven
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Forget it Seven, he is another fraud on a mission, ultimately he will come to regret it, we can only hope he comes to regret it before it's too late.


    They come in here and spout their man based opinions and never address the Dogmatic argument. I wonder what goes through their heads when they see their heresies side by side with Dogma. They never address it, and the ones who've tried use other man-made arguments to try to refute the clear words of the Church. "We have to understand it how the Church understands it". Uh huh, and to them that means the exact opposite of what was written.


    Exactly. I know that to be a fact, yet it is sometimes difficult to believe - heresy is truth and truth is heresy. The more they repeat the heresy, the more the truth itself becomes heresy to them - well this dope made a website that preaches lies and heresy as if it's the truth - gives us some idea how far gone he is and he only keeps sinking deeper into the muck.
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41912
    • Reputation: +23950/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office
    « Reply #26 on: February 21, 2017, 07:42:32 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • This discussion is pointless.  SH is a fake.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41912
    • Reputation: +23950/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office
    « Reply #27 on: February 21, 2017, 08:05:10 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • bosco himself is a fake ... an alternate account for "Lover of Truth".

    In any case, your ridiculous "public outcry" argument has already been addressed.

    Quote from: An even Seven
    The fact that there was no protests or public outcry only serves to prove that most of the world had stopped believing in EENS at that point already.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41912
    • Reputation: +23950/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office
    « Reply #28 on: February 21, 2017, 08:12:39 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Circuмstantial evidence that SH is a fake or was at the very least tampered with:

    1) lack of inclusion in AAS ... so as to avoid the personal scrutiny of Pius XII

    2) publication only in Cushing's own rag (no hidden agenda there)

    3) most damning ... SH allegedly sat around unpublished for 2 years and then was released suddenly right after the death of the Cardinal who allegedly wrote it ... Cardinal Marchetti Selvaggiani.  What would be the explanation for this except that they didn't want Selvaggiani to be able to question its contents?

    Put these 3 together, and you have conclusive (albeit circuмstantial) evidence that SH was at the very least severely doctored by Cushing and company ... if not completely fabricated out of thin air.

    Offline Arvinger

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 585
    • Reputation: +296/-95
    • Gender: Male
    Analysis of the Letter of the Holy Office
    « Reply #29 on: February 21, 2017, 08:21:11 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: saintbosco13
    Quote from: Arvinger
    Quote from: saintbosco13
    Quote from: Arvinger

    What "implicit desire" means in context of these quotes from Saints is desire which is implicit from person's explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity and accepting teaching authority of the Catholic Church.....


    You telling us your personal view of what this doctrine means is the same as a Protestant telling us what a verse in Scripture means. It's absolutely meaningless. No one is interested in your private interpretation of a doctrine that the Church is already definitively clarified.


    Again you present no arguments whatsoever, just cheap ad hominem. I explained what "implicit desire" means in context, St. Thomas Aquinas taught that explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the Trinity is absolutely necessary for salvation and his teaching on implicit desire for baptism is consistent with that. He does not teach that people can be saved through BoD without faith in Christ while remaining in invincible ignorance. BoD can only apply to those with explicit faith in essential mysteries of the Catholic faith.



    My arguments were presented in the original post. If you hold a true position, why not address them? Rifling off several quotes that no one denies is just a diversion.




    I was not talking about the 1949 letter, but your misuse of St. Thomas Aquinas, who never taught that people who remain in invincible ignorance can be saved through implicit desire for baptism, for only a person who believes in Jesus Christ and the Trinity can have implicit desire for baptism - and St. Thomas taught that explicit faith in Jesus Christ and the Most Holy Trinity is necessary for salvation. You have never dealt with that and evidently you are not interested in that. Just like you cannot deal with the Athanasian Creed since it refutes your heretical position.