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Author Topic: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism  (Read 1555 times)

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Offline Gray2023

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Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
« Reply #45 on: Yesterday at 04:38:31 PM »
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  • The fruits are not to be seen/measured according to all people, because the sspx (just like the catholic church) is made up of flawed, sinful individuals.  The fruits are to be seen in exemplary individuals, but most importantly, in the Truth/doctrine.  That is, that priests/families are willing to sacrifice x, y and z to protect, (attempt to) build Tradition, build schools, build chapels/convents, in hopes that Tradition will survive.  The struggle/desire/work is proof that Tradition is worth keeping.

    In other words, there was a story of a protestant who was serious about catholicism.  He visited Rome in the mid 1800s, admist all sorts of Vatican scandals, etc.  He returned and shocked his friends by his decision to convert.  He said, "If the Catholic Church can survive all of the turmoil, scandals, and lukewarm individuals I met in Rome, then surely it only exists because God is keeping it going.  Therefore, it must be of Divine origin."
    Thanks for that glimmer of hope.

    I guess the time period you exist in always feels worse than the time period others exist in.  I can honestly say though, I wouldn't want to see my loved ones being eaten by animals.
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #46 on: Yesterday at 04:46:00 PM »
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  • Yeah, and that catechism is a DIRECT contradiction of Trent, which tells us that NO ONE can have supernatural virtues of faith, hope or love BEFORE baptism.  It is heresy to say that a person can desire God in the manner that God deserves to be desired (i.e. a perfect act of love) unless God gives this person the grace to do so.  And this grace (i.e. perfect love of God) is called the supernatural virtue of charity, which can only be gotten through baptism.

    One can have imperfect Faith before Baptism.  One can have imperfect love of God before baptism.  NO ONE can have supernatural/perfect Faith or Love UNTIL Baptism.  Because baptism is the FIRST TIME one receives the 3 theological virtues - faith, hope and charity. 

    You cannot "will yourself" to heaven.  This catechism is just like the "faith alone saves" protestant heresy, except it is called "love alone saves".
    You don't know what you're talking about. 
    When did that supernatural love of God begin?  It wasn't needed until Christ died?  Or was it just before Christ's death? Was Abraham's love of God only natural? Was David's love of God only natural?  Shouldn't a statement like that be True always?  I think I am missing something.  Faith, Hope, and Charity only existed in the times after Christ?  :confused:
    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine


    Offline songbird

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #47 on: Yesterday at 04:59:25 PM »
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  • I read the Boston Heresy Case, Fr. Feeney's.  Fr. Feeney defended the Faith!  His adversaries were of the Church.  Very sad but very true.  Fr. Feeney defended the family, when youth were leaving the Faith, and Parent's morned.  Fr. Feeney saw that EENS was being attacked and watered down.

    He Defended the Faith! He defended God's family.  Fr. Feeney obeyed God.  Thank God that he woke us up to the destruction of the Church. than you WorldsAway for your post.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #48 on: Yesterday at 05:11:15 PM »
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  • When did that supernatural love of God begin?  It wasn't needed until Christ died?  Or was it just before Christ's death? Was Abraham's love of God only natural? Was David's love of God only natural?  Shouldn't a statement like that be True always?  I think I am missing something.  Faith, Hope, and Charity only existed in the times after Christ?  :confused:
    Supernatural love of God cannot be attained by any person.  It’s a gift of God; it’s a grace.  It exists when GOD GIVES IT TO US, at baptism.  

    I don’t know if the Old Law provided the supernatural virtue of charity.  That’s besides the point.  

    Under the new law, it is INFALLIBLY true that no one attains this virtue except through baptism.  

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 08:44:19 PM »
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  • If Traditional Catholics all believed in EENS, none of us would have any doubt but that that Vatican II was heretical and that the Conciliar papal claimants have been Anti-Popes.  There would be no more needing to stretch and read into this ambiguous statement or that ambiguous statement by one or another of the Anti-Popes.  It would be crystal clear to the eyes of faith, and the only reason everyone doesn't see it is due to weak faith.
    This is a refreshing truth.

    Like a drink of clean, pure water...

    But, it is neither convenient or palatable for most trads (of whatever stripe/camp).

    Many prefer the brackish waters of indifference. 

    "I have my chapel, bishop, priest, Sacraments, community, etc., what does it matter if I think this or that - it is only my opinion and that ain't worth much."

    Either way, don't let it keep you down. 







    Offline Tarmac Turkey

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #50 on: Yesterday at 10:47:44 PM »
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  • Feeneyism
    I. St. Benedict Center
    Origin of St. Benedict Center – Contrary to popular opinion, St. Benedict Center
    (SBC) was not started by Fr. Feeney but by Catherine Goddard Clarke and two laymen
    in 1940. It was to be a place where Catholic university students could come to learn
    about and be bolstered in the Faith. Fr. Feeney was introduced to the place in 1942 and
    later became its spiritual director with the permission of his Jesuit superior. Later, in
    1945, he received permission to work there full time.
    Slide into rebellion – Unfortunately, it seems that a spirit of independence prevailed at
    SBC. They transformed their work into a school without consulting the Jesuits or the
    diocese. Fr. Feeney also denied other Jesuits the opportunity to help at the Center. Fr.
    Feeney was, at this time, looking for a "displaced" doctrine that would explain the
    doctrinal corruption that he witnessed all around him. In 1947, he announced that extra
    ecclesiam nulla salus, "The Dogma" as SBC refers to it (implying that the other dogmas
    are less important), was the 'displaced' linch-pin doctrine and it became his celebrated
    cause.
     There is no doubt that Fr. Feeney was a brilliant poet, writer, and speaker. His name
    pops up fairly frequently in literature from his times. He was also very zealous for souls.
    He would often speak in the middle of the Boston Common to whoever would listen and
    succeeded in converting many.
    The break and the founding of the Slaves – Unfortunately, however, the germ of
    trouble that began at SBC came to full flower in 1948, when Fr. Feeney's superiors
    transferred him to Holy Cross College in Worcester. At first, he obeyed; he was a Jesuit
    with a vow of obedience. But shortly thereafter two young men from SBC came and
    persuaded him to come back to the center and listen to their pleas for him to stay. He
    listened and he stayed. His superiors wrote him several times, begging him and
    ordering him to obey. He refused and his faculty to hear confessions was suspended
    the last day of 1948. Seventeen days later, Fr. Feeney founded the Slaves of the
    Immaculate Heart of Mary.
     This is where things get a little bizarre. Fr. Feeney founded what he called "his Order"
    without any approval from anyone, Jesuit, Bishop, Pope, etc... Catherine Clarke
    became one of its first members under the name of Sr. Catherine. This was while she
    was still living with her husband Hank. Many other members were added who were
    married with children. These members took a vow of obedience and later a vow of
    chastity was added. It was obviously a bit of a problem to try to lead a religious life and
    yet have young children. The solution for SBC: raise the children communally. Gary
    Potter, in his book After the Boston Heresy Case (apologetic work for SBC), says, "The
    children's parents effectively ceased to exist as parents to the children, and more so as
    a child grew from 3 to 5 to 10 and older. Care was taken that the children had no direct
    or special contact with their parents, save on a half-dozen major feast days during each 
    year when the entire community would gather for socializing. . . The parents were seen
    by the children as scarcely more than another Big Brother or Big Sister." Needless to
    say, no Catholic religious association has ever attempted anything like this.
    Condemnation by the Church – It all went very much downhill from there. Fr. Feeney
    was suspended on 4/18/1949. The Holy Office, whose prefect was Pope Pius XII at the
    time, issued a decree on the proper meaning of extra ecclesiam nulla salus on July 28,
    1949 in response to a request of Abp. Cushing of Boston. Fr. Feeney referred to this as
    a "heretical letter." He was expelled from the Jesuits on October 10 of that year. In
    1952, SBC was put under interdict. On September 24, 1952, SBC sent a letter to Pius
    XII accusing the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office of heresy. As a result, Fr.
    Feeney was summoned to Rome by Pius XII for a hearing . . . three times. Each time he
    responded with a letter while refusing to go. He was excommunicated on Feb. 13, 1953.
    Today SBC has splintered into 4 different groups, one in NH, two in MA, and one in OH.
     As happens in so many cases, the first act of disobedience of Fr. Feeney led an
    admirable priest to ruin. There is no doubt that the Jesuits were infected by liberalism in
    the 40s and 50s and there were quite a few who did not like Fr. Feeney preaching "no
    salvation outside the Church." His response to this, however, was disastrous. It led him
    to disobedience, the establishment of an order with highly questionable practices, and
    doctrinal aberration. For Fr. Feeney ended up by emphasizing extra ecclesiam nulla
    salus to the point of exaggeration, coming up with a notion contradicting the constant
    Tradition of the Church found in the statements of the Fathers, catechisms, councils,
    and Popes. The teaching of the Church regarding the so-called baptisms of blood and
    desire is part of the ordinary magisterium. Questioning it would be like questioning the
    doctrine of the Assumption before it was defined in 1950. This is made clear in Is
    Feeneyism Catholic? by Fr. Laisney.
    Letter of the Holy Office to the Archbishop of Boston
    Your Excellency:
    This Supreme Sacred Congregation has followed very attentively the rise and the course of
    the grave controversy stirred up by certain associates of “St. Benedict Center” and “Boston
    College” in regard to the interpretation of that axiom: “Outside the Church there is no salvation.”
    After having examined all the docuмents that are necessary or useful in this matter, among
    them information from your Chancery, as well as appeals and reports in which the associates of
    “St. Benedict Center” explain their opinions and complaints, and also many other docuмents
    pertinent to the controversy, officially collected, the same Sacred Congregation is convinced
    that the unfortunate controversy arose from the fact that the axiom, “outside the Church there is
    no salvation,” was not correctly understood and weighed, and that the same controversy was
    rendered more bitter by serious disturbance of discipline arising from the fact that some of the
    associates of the institutions mentioned above refused reverence and obedience to legitimate
    authorities.
    (the letter goes on…)
    F. Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani.
    A. Ottaviani, Assessor.
    Holy Office, 8 Aug., 1949.

    Theology on this question
    The Article of St Thomas
    Resp: Baptism has its efficacy from the Holy Ghost (principal cause) and from Our Lord’s
    Passion (instrumental cause).
    But the principal cause is not constrained to use a given means to produce the effect.
    Thus, the Holy Ghost can produce the effect—a conformity to Christ’s Passion—without the
    sacrament, in martyrdom, i.e.
    • death or at least pains which should have been mortal even if de facto death did not
    follow
    • in odium fidei vel exercitium virtutis (e.g. St Maria Goretti)
    • with the death having been accepted (not on the occasion of a war but by being a
    victim). Jn 15:13: no one can have greater love than dying for his friends: martyrdom is
    the supreme act of charity.
    The Holy Ghost can also move the heart to believe, love God and repent, and communicate
    grace in a situation where there is no ‘real’ conformation to Christ’s Passion yet grace is given
    through His merits. This is called baptism of the Spirit or of repentance or of desire.
    → Baptism of blood and baptism of desire are called “baptisms” metaphorically, insofar as they
    produce an effect of baptism, i.e. grace.
    N.B. – The essence of baptism of desire is not merely a desire of baptism but an act of perfect
    contrition and charity which includes the desire of baptism either explicitly (e.g. a catechumen
    awaiting baptism) or implicitly (ignorance or better nescience with regard to the sacrament of
    Baptism but the soul is disposed to conform to whatever God wants in such a way that if he
    were to know about Baptism he would ask for it immediately and explicitly. Such a disposition is
    a consequence of the presence of charity in his soul). cf. III q.69 a.4 ad 2, and the Holy Office’s
    letter to the Archbishop of Boston DS 3866-3873 below.
    Analogy: in the case of penance, Trent (Dz 898) says that even an act of perfect
    contrition reconciles man to God without the sacrament being received; nevertheless, that
    reconciliation should not be ascribed to contrition apart from the desire of the sacrament which it
    includes (but perfect contrition is more than the simple desire of going to confession). Hence,
    baptism of desire is an act of perfect contrition which at least implicitly contains the desire of
    baptism.
    Father Feeney believed that baptism of desire gives grace (“A man in the Old Testament
    waiting and wanting baptism to be instituted and a man in the New Testament waiting and
    wanting baptism to be administered could both be justified” Bread of Life p.40; “Getting into the
    state of sanctifying grace is justification” id. p.18) but did not believe that this sufficed for salvation. He created a new dogma of faith: ‘no salvation without baptism of water.’ To avoid the
    condemnation of the Council of Trent, he declared that justification and salvation are distinct,
    that one could be justified and have no “claim to the inheritance of Heaven”…but this is
    heretical. Sanctifying grace makes the just man a child of God and gives him a claim to
    the inheritance of Heaven (de fide):
    • (Condemnation of Baius, who said that you could have charity without your sins being
    remitted)
    • Dz 1069-70: true contrition (with charity) remits sin and someone who has charity cannot
    be damned
    • (Trent) Dz 799: the final cause of justification is eternal life.
    → the existence of the baptism of desire is proxima fidei (in particular because of Trent).
    Abp. Lefebvre on the subject (The Spiritual Life, pp.362-363):
    Beyond baptism of water, there is baptism of blood, which is the baptism of martyrs. Those who
    were not baptized in water, but by martyrdom, also received in themselves the grace and the
    charity of our Lord. And then there is baptism of desire, which can be explicit or implicit. Explicit
    baptism of desire is what catechumens have. If they have the interior conditions of regret of their
    sins and of detachment from mortal sin, they have grace.
    Finally, Pope Pius XII spoke of implicit desire, as regards the salvation of infidels, of those who
    have neither baptism of water nor baptism of blood, and who are not catechumens. And God
    knows that there are infidels in the world today! It is the vast majority of men. Can they be
    saved? Can they receive the charity of God in them, and so return to God? Well, the Church
    teaches us that souls have the implicit desire of baptism if they are disposed to do the will of
    God, making an act of charity as perfect as possible within the conditions where they find
    themselves, and if they do not know the Catholic Church, but in such an action manifest a
    desire to conform themselves interiorly and exteriorly to the will of God.
    So, think of a Muslim woman or a Buddhist woman who receives an actual grace from God to
    make an act of perfect charity. In that act is contained the implicit desire for baptism, because in
    choosing that act, she submits her will to the will of God. She says interiorly, “I love God, and if
    He asked me for something right now, I would be ready to do it.” If someone said to her, “God
    asks that you be baptized,” “Ah! Alright,” she would say, “I’m ready to be baptized.” Such a soul
    is well disposed. But she would not be saved by error. No one is saved by a false religion, by a
    religion which is invented by Satan.
    So there can be people who have a well disposed heart, who truly make an act of perfect
    charity. That implicit desire of baptism confers sanctifying grace on them, but it is through the
    Church that they are saved. No one can be saved outside the Church, outside of our Lord,
    outside of baptism.
    And then that person receives sanctifying grace through the implicit desire of baptism, so that
    charity comes into her. That is why she, too, is united to our Lord Jesus Christ, united to the
    Church, even though she does not know it. But we have to recognize that those conditions are normally very difficult, because false
    religions are so permissive as regards sin, as regards vice, and so those people generally have
    vices.
    Positive Theology on the Three Baptisms
    Scripture:
    • Acts 10: Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before baptism (it is the very argument of St
    Peter to have them baptized).
    • As for martyrdom: Our Lord promised heaven to anyone who would die for Him, cf. Matt.
    5:10; 10: 39; 16: 24).
    Fathers1
    :
    • St Ambrose RJ 1328 (concerning the death of a catechumen Valentinian II, a young
    emperor who died in 375; it is because of the intimate knowledge that St Ambrose had of
    this man that he had such confidence) “Sed audio vos dolore quod non acceperit
    sacramenta baptismatis…Atqui…hoc voto habuit…et proxime baptizari se a me velle
    significavit…Non habet ergo gratiam quam desideravit? Non habet quam poposcit?
    Certe quia poposcit accepit. Et unde illud est (Wisdom IV,7) ‘Justus si morte
    præoccupatus fuerit in refrigerium erit’” (“but the just man, though he die early, shall be
    in rest”).
    • And St Ambrose quoted by St Thomas in q.68 a.2 “I lost him whom I was to regenerate
    but he did not lose the grace he prayed for” [it was not just the asking for baptism which
    justified the man but his visible holiness is what made St Ambrose think that he was in
    the state of grace].
    • St Augustine (De Baptismo RJ 1629-1630, quoted at the end of the corpus of our article
    and in q.68 a.2 SC & ad 3): if there is not enough time he says that ‘fidem
    conversionemque cordis’ can supply.
    • St Bernard (epist 77): baptism of desire may be enough as long as “aquam non
    contemptus, sed sola prohibeat impossibilitas.”
    • As for martyrdom there is a great number of quotations possible: Tertullian RJ 309 St
    Cyprian RJ 598, St Cyril of Jerusalem RJ 811 “si quis baptisma non recipiat, salutem
    non habet, solis martyribus exceptis, qui etiam sine aqua regnum recipiunt.”
    According to Suarez, all theologians agree (Abelard may have been the only exception).
    Magisterium:
    • Dz 388 Innocent II (1130-1147): about a “priest” [Feeneyites will argue that this
    expression proves that this text is not trustworthy!] who had never been baptized and
    died: there is no fear about his eternal salvation (quotes St Ambrose): public prayer
    should be offered for him.
    • Dz 413 Innocent III (1198-1216): a Jew who died after having baptized himself was
    saved “propter sacramenti fidem, etsi non propter fidei sacramentum.”
    • Dz 796 Council of Trent: the translation from the state of Adam to the state of grace is
    only possible, since the promulgation of the Gospel, by baptism or “vel eius voto” (the
    desire for it)Dz 847: the sacraments or the desire of them are necessary for salvation.

    • Dz 1677 Encyclical Quanto conficiamus moerore of Pius IX on indifferentism: “they who
    labour in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the
    natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to
    obey God, live an honest and upright life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and
    knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness
    and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has
    not the guilt of deliberate sin.”
    • DS 3821 (not in Dz) Mystici Corporis: prayer for those who are not yet members of the
    Church: “we ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of
    grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their
    salvation. For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain
    relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those
    many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church.”
    • DS 3869 Pius XII against Fr Feeney: to obtain eternal salvation it is necessary at least to
    be united to the Church by desire and longing.
    1 cf. books of Father Laisney and of Father Rulleau

    Copied from sspxpodcast.com

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #51 on: Today at 05:15:43 AM »
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  • Feeneyism
    I. St. Benedict Center
    Origin of St. Benedict Center – Contrary to popular opinion, St. Benedict Center
    (SBC) was not started by Fr. Feeney but by Catherine Goddard Clarke and two laymen
    in 1940. 
    The Loyolas and the Cabots (pdf attached)

    Introduction

    "This book is going to press one year after the people of the United States, and eventually the people of the
    world were shocked by, a stubborn profession of faith made on the part of some Boston Catholics, who were
    at once silenced and interdicted by the ecclesiastical and sacerdotal authorities in what has come to be known
    far and wide as the “Boston Heresy Case.”

    The strangest feature of this case is not, as might be commonly supposed, that some Boston Catholics were
    holding heresy and were being rebuked by their legitimate superiors. It is, rather, that these same Catholics
    were accusing their ecclesiastical superiors and academic mentors of teaching heresy, and as thanks for
    having been so solicitous were immediately suppressed by these same authorities on the score of being
    intolerant and bigoted. If history takes any note of this large incident (in what is often called the most
    Catholic city in the United States) it may interest historians to note that those who were punished were never
    accused of holding heresy, but only of being intolerant, unbroadminded and disobedient. It is also to be
    noted that the same authorities have never gone to the slightest trouble to point out wherein the accusation
    made against them by the “Boston group” is unfounded. In a heresy case usually a subject is being punished
    by his superior for denying a doctrine of his church. In this heresy case a subject of the Church is being
    punished by his superior for professing a defined doctrine...."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #52 on: Today at 10:53:05 AM »
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  • Feeneyism
    I. St. Benedict Center
    Origin of St. Benedict Center – Contrary to popular opinion, St. Benedict Center
    (SBC) was not started by Fr. Feeney but by Catherine Goddard Clarke and two laymen
    in 1940. It was to be a place where Catholic university students could come to learn
    about and be bolstered in the Faith. Fr. Feeney was introduced to the place in 1942 and
    later became its spiritual director with the permission of his Jesuit superior. Later, in
    1945, he received permission to work there full time.

    [SNIP]

    Copied from sspxpodcast.com

    This screed was written by Fr. Paul Robinson, a disgruntled former "Feeneyite".  The lies and deliberate misrepresentations in this PDF (from his show notes to his podcast from July of 2021) are shameful, disingenuous, misleading, and he will have to answer to God for his intentional misrepresentation of the facts.  I say "intentional", because he absolutely knows better.  He and I used to discuss "Feeneyism", Baptism of Desire, the necessity of the Catholic Faith for salvation, etc., in detail (usually after Mass over coffee and doughnuts) before he left and went into the seminary.  He knows he's being deceptive.  His shift in thinking on this and many other topics are tied directly to him going into the SSPX seminary (and his subsequent advancement through the ranks), and this is the same Fr. Robinson who pushes evolution and the big bang, scripture is not inerrant, the new rites of orders are valid, etc..  He openly laughs at the idea that he is accused of being a modernist.  

    Beyond all that, virtually every single "point" Fr. Robinson raises in this screed has already been thoroughly addressed, dismantled, and refuted multiple times in the "Feeneyism Ghetto" section right here on this forum. We've gone through these same objections in exhaustive detail, quoting Church docuмents, theologians, popes, councils, and the actual writings of Fr. Feeney himself, yet the responses never seem to sink in. There's a complete lack of originality or fresh thinking here; it's just the same tired talking points recycled endlessly. Critics like this keep coming back to the identical claims, ignoring the detailed rebuttals that have been posted repeatedly. It's like dealing with parrots who squawk the same lines over and over, no matter how many times they've been corrected with solid evidence and clear explanations. If anyone actually took the time to read through those threads instead of skimming or dismissing them outright, they'd see that these issues aren't unresolved, they've been settled decisively for anyone willing to engage honestly with the material.
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed


    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #53 on: Today at 12:18:49 PM »
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  • Bottom line, the whole controversy with Fr. Feeney comes down to one man: Richard Cardinal Cushing, a key player behind Vatican II's Nostra Aetate.

    https://thebostonpilot.com/opinion/article.asp?ID=172093

    It was he, at the direct request of Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. (after Bobby complained about Fr. Feeney's Harvard preaching that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church), who silenced Fr. Feeney in 1949, placed St. Benedict Center under interdict, and drove the process forward. All communications to and from Rome on the "Boston Heresy Case" went through, and were filtered by, Cushing's office, including Suprema Haec (the 1949 Holy Office Protocol Letter), which was published ONLY in Cushing's newspaper "The Boston Pilot", and nowhere else. This was political.

    Ted Kennedy details the episode in his autobiography True Compass (2009): Bobby Kennedy complained to his father, Joseph Kennedy Sr., because Fr. Feeney was preaching there was no salvation outside the Church.  Joe called "Richard" (Cushing) right away to set up Bobby's meeting with the cardinal, who sent investigators to hear Feeney preach and then acted swiftly to shut him down. This had nothing to do with Baptism of Desire and everything to do with the dogma of No Salvation Outside the Church. (The "Baptism of Desire" angle wasn't even an issue then; the shift in defining "Feeneyite" from one who holds Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus as it has been defined to one who "denies Baptism of Desire", came in the 1990s, largely through Fr. Francois Laisney's book Is Feeneyism Catholic?.)

    Ted claims Bobby's action led, over time, to "a major shift in Catholic teaching regarding the possibility of salvation for non-Catholics." He adds: "Nor did [Bobby's] principled gesture end with the banishment of Feeney. Reinforced by Cardinal Cushing's discussions with the papal hierarchy in Rome, it became an animating impulse of the Second Ecuмenical Council of the Vatican, which opened under Pope John XXIII in 1962."

    Ted frames it as a proud family legacy sparking doctrinal change, boldly tying the Kennedys to a "major shift" and Vatican II.

    It's all right there in Ted's autobiography, True Compass

    Gee, none of that was covered by Fr. Robinson's "show notes." I wonder why?

    Cushing didn't become this way at Vatican II.  He was always this way.  It was his agenda from the beginning.

    You're either on the side of Fr. Feeney, the Council of Florence, the Council of Trent, the Athanasian Creed, the Nicene Creed, or you're on the side of Cushing, Nostra Aetate, and Vatican II.  There is no middle ground.


    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #54 on: Today at 01:06:07 PM »
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  • Commentary by St. Robert Bellarmine

    Psalm 31
    THE SECOND PENITENTIAL PSALM

    Explanation Of The Psalm

    1–2 No one can fairly appreciate the value of health until they have had to deplore the loss of it. It was only when David tasted of the bitterness of sin that he first began to feel the sweetness of innocence. Hence, this Penitential Psalm starts in the praise of pardon and innocence; for they heal the soul, and are opposed to that sickness that is brought on by sin. He begins with pardon, as well for the sake of advancing from the inferior to the superior, as also, because it was only very lately his health had been restored. “Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven.” How happy are they, who, notwithstanding their fall, are, still, not despised by God; but, roused by his grace, are converted to penance, and thus obtain pardon. “And whose sins are covered;” the same idea in different language; for sins, when forgiven, are covered and hidden, so as to appear no more; on which we shall presently have more to say. “Blessed is the man to whom the Lord hath not imputed sin.” A transition from pardon, which applies to the many, to innocence, which belongs to the few, exclaiming, O truly happy and lucky he; who has done nothing that can be counted sin; and to whom, therefore, the Lord, who is most just in his judgments, “hath not imputed sin.” And not only has been free from actual sin, but even “in whose spirit there is no guile;” never committed sin in thought or word; for the word “Spirit” embraces both; that is, thought and words, in the former sense, being called the heart or the mind; and, in the latter sense, the spirit of the mouth or lips. Of the former, the apostle speaks, 1 Cor 2, “For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man, that is in him?” Of the latter, 1 Cor. 14, “I will pray in the spirit, I will pray also with the understanding: I will sing with the spirit, I will also sing with the understanding.” By innocence, we are to understand here, not the natural innocence, without the intervention of divine grace, which is of no effect; but, that innocence which God, by a gift of singular grace, has given to a few; through which the sin committed by others, namely, original sin, is so condoned, as not to suffer them, voluntarily, to commit any mortal sin; and this is the highest order of forgiveness. All manner of innocence, then, has a certain amount of remission of sin in connection with it; and of all, with the exception of Christ, it may be said, “They all sinned, and need the grace of God.” St. Paul, therefore, quotes this passage to prove that nobody could be justified by any works, but those springing from grace; and says, Rom. 4, “But to him that worketh not, yet believeth in him who justifieth the impious, his faith is reputed to justice, according to the purpose of the grace of God.” As David also termeth the blessedness of a man, to whom God reputeth justice without works; “Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord hath not imputed sin.” From which it would appear that the Apostle understands the prophet to say, that they are not blessed who, by their own strength, work out justice; but they, who, through God’s grace, have been pardoned; and thus acquired justice. The prophet seems to have particular individuals in view here. Job, for instance, who says, in chap. 27, “Till I die I will not depart from my innocence. My justifications which I have begun to hold, I will not forsake: for my heart doth not reprehend me in all my life.” Abel, Henoch, Noe, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who are said in the Scriptures to have been free from sin, come under this head; and, perhaps, in spirit, he foresaw Jeremias. Both John the Baptist, sanctified in the womb, and the Virgin Mother, by a higher privilege, preserved not only from actual, but even from original sin. Heretics of the present day seek to prove three false dogmas from these verses. The Psalm has the title of understanding; the Holy Ghost, perhaps, having foreseen it would be so misunderstood. They assert that justification consists solely in the remission of sin, and not in the infusion of justice; from David having absolutely said, “Blessed are they whose sins are forgiven.” They say also, that this remission of sins is not a real, but an apparent remission, which does not actually remove the sins, but covers them, hides them, and renders them not imputable. They furthermore assert, from this passage, that once the sin is forgiven, no satisfaction need follow; for, if God exact even temporal punishment of the person justified, how can he be said not to impute sin? How can he be said not to impute while he punishes?

    https://www.ecatholic2000.com/bellarmine/commentary-on-psalms.shtml#_Toc417747153

    Who do you think these, "present day heretics " were according to St. Robert? How do you think his contemporaries viewed this exegetical statement?


    Offline Vanguard

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #55 on: Today at 01:10:34 PM »
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  • The question boils down to 
    “Is “perfect contrition” enough to rid a person of all of their sins including “original sin”? 


    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #56 on: Today at 01:24:36 PM »
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  • The question boils down to
    “Is “perfect contrition” enough to rid a person of all of their sins including “original sin”?

    It's not simply a matter of ridding oneself of sins for the unbaptized. Their fallen nature must be elevated, they must be grafted into the Mystical Body of Christ, become part of the vine, and enter the one sheepfold. This isn't about just forgiving sins through sorrow, it's about supernatural rebirth: being "born again" of water and the Holy Ghost to become a true member of Christ's Church.

    Perfect contrition does suffice in certain cases to forgive actual sins and reconcile a person with God before confession.  The Council of Trent spells this out clearly in its Decree on Penance (Session XIV). But that's for the already-baptized. We're talking here about something fundamentally different: the absolute necessity of the sacrament of regeneration for the unbaptized to be freed from original sin's effects, reborn in Christ, and incorporated into His Church.

    If anyone says that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation, let him be anathema. (Council of Trent: Session VII, Canon V)

    That's why Christ says: "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). And again: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16).

    This is exactly what Fr. Feeney preached.
    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline Vanguard

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #57 on: Today at 01:38:30 PM »
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  • Can “perfect contrition” do that? 

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #58 on: Today at 01:40:20 PM »
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  • Can “perfect contrition” do that?

    The Church has never taught that it does.

    A baptized Catholic who falls into mortal sin is still a member of the Church.  He is a dead member, but a member nonetheless.  He can go to confession and have supernatural life restored to his already regenerated nature.  It is not the state of grace or the lack of actual sin that causes one to be a Catholic, to be a member of the Mystical Body of Christ.  It is baptism itself, specifically the character.

    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #59 on: Today at 01:45:16 PM »
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  • Bottom line, the whole controversy with Fr. Feeney comes down to one man: Richard Cardinal Cushing, a key player behind Vatican II's Nostra Aetate.

    https://thebostonpilot.com/opinion/article.asp?ID=172093

    Seems like a good time to re-post evidence against the criminal +Cushing who started the whole smear campaign against the dogma and Fr. Feeney - and for his efforts was later elevated to Cardinal....


    Link
    Archbishop of Boston Cushing, was made a Cardinal of the Catholic Church by Pope John XXXIII in 1958.
    He was also one of the cardinal electors in the 1963 papal conclave, which selected Pope Paul VI.
    He was on good terms with practically the entire Boston elite.
    Cushing built useful(?) relationships with Jєωs, Protestants, and institutions outside the usual Catholic community.

    At the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965) Cushing played a vital role in drafting Nostra Aetate, the docuмent that officially absolved the Jєωs of deicide charge.

    He was deeply committed to implementing the Council's reforms and promoting renewal in the Church.[16] In an unprecedented gesture of ecuмenism, he even encouraged Catholics to attend Billy Graham's crusades.
    He was a member of the NAACP.
    Oh, and his sister was married to a Jєω

    Link May 1945 - Cushing attends  interfaith dinner

    Link Nov. 1948 -  Archbishop Cushing, dwelling on the need for brotherhood, pledged the friendship of American Catholics with Jєωs.

    Link April 1949 - Archbishop Cushing says teaching the dogma of No salvation outside the Church is “teaching ideas leading to bigotry.” Group is censured for publishing quarterly magazine contending that persons dying outside the Church could not be saved.

    Link April 1949 - New catechism is changed, now upholds Boston College and Archbishop Cushing claim that there is salvation outside the Church.

    Link Oct. 1949 - Fr. Feeney silenced by Archbishop Cushing for preaching there is no salvation outside the Church.

    Link April 1949 - Cushing states: “This absolute requirement of an explicit desire to join the Catholic Church, as a condition of salvation is clearly wrong. All theologians hold that faith and charity or perfect contrition involving an implicit desire to join the Church suffice for salvation.” (Sounds like LoT, Ambrose, &etc.)

    Link Feb. 1953 - Cushing excommunicated “heresy priest” for disobedience, not for heresy.

    Link
    Nov. 1970  - Cardinal Cushing receives praise from the Jєωs

    Jєωιѕн leaders expressed sorrow today over the death yesterday at the age of 75 of Richard Cardinal Cushing. Archbishop of Boston since 1944 and a friend of Israel and the Jєωs. Philip E. Hoffman, president of the American Jєωιѕн Committee, said “Jєωιѕн people throughout the world will always remember with satisfaction Cardinal Cushing’s efforts to achieve an honest and meaningful statement on the Roman Catholic Church and the Jєωs five years ago in Rome at the Second Vatican Council.” Cardinal Cushing he said, “was at the forefront in this tremendously important endeavor,” and “the positive results of Vatican Council II will be a lasting memorial to the Cardinal.” World Jєωry. Mr. Hoffman said, “has lost a friend and champion.” Seymour Graubard, national chairman of the Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith. said Jєωs the world over will always remember the dramatic plea Cardinal Cushing made on the floor of Vatican Council II five years ago in Rome. “His distinctive voice echoed through the chamber as he asked the Council to “cry out” against “any inequity, hatred or persecution of our Jєωιѕн brothers,”

    The UAHC official added that Cardinal Cushing “was a liberal in the truest sense of the word, practicing the principles of ecuмenism long before the term became fashionable.”

    Cardinal Cushing, whose efforts at ecuмenism extended to ѕуηαgσgυє oratory, received a rare tribute when he implored Vatican Council II to reject the doctrine of Jєωιѕн guilt for the death of Jesus. The bishops, who normally do not applaud speakers, did so for him.

    Link July 1977 - Fr. Feeney, silenced in 1949, excommunicated in 1953 for condemning the teachings of Boston College that persons outside the Church could attain salvation after death, was reinstated in 1972 without having to recant his position.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse