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Author Topic: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism  (Read 1097 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
« Reply #30 on: Today at 10:46:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on Today at 07:18:38 AM
    Quote from Ladislaus

    Ladislaus, I am reading your post.  I have not read the whole thing yet.


    I don't believe that any Catholic believes that.  BoD happens with a person who has a sincere desire to become Catholic.  Baptism is just the last step to make it official.  What you just said above is like saying these Catholic priests think a Hindu can be saved without showing any desire for Catholicism and you know that is not what they meant.
    Here is a scan of a catechism from a poster (+rip) pretty much confirming what Lad said.    

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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #31 on: Today at 11:02:33 AM »
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    • Yeah, and that catechism is a DIRECT contradiction of Trent, which tells us that NO ONE can have supernatural virtues of faith, hope or love BEFORE baptism.  It is heresy to say that a person can desire God in the manner that God deserves to be desired (i.e. a perfect act of love) unless God gives this person the grace to do so.  And this grace (i.e. perfect love of God) is called the supernatural virtue of charity, which can only be gotten through baptism.

    One can have imperfect Faith before Baptism.  One can have imperfect love of God before baptism.  NO ONE can have supernatural/perfect Faith or Love UNTIL Baptism.  Because baptism is the FIRST TIME one receives the 3 theological virtues - faith, hope and charity. 

    You cannot "will yourself" to heaven.  This catechism is just like the "faith alone saves" protestant heresy, except it is called "love alone saves".

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    I don't believe that any Catholic believes that. 
    You don't know what you're talking about.  
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #32 on: Today at 11:25:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 07:41:00 AM
    Please, shut up. Fr. Feeney was obedient to the Truth
    "Please, be quiet" would have been a more civil approach.  The fact that the fruits of these discussions are full of so much anger and lack charity make me think they lack approval from God.  I still would like to see a list of Saints that were disobedient to their superiors.  If their is proof from the past, then I would be more likely to look at Father Feeney's actions differently. 
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #33 on: Today at 11:33:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Russiantrad on Today at 07:52:44 AM
    I'll tell you more: Saint Athanasius was excommunicated several times. Should he have obeyed the authorities in everything?
    Many other saints were persecuted and excommunicated. (Saint Columba, saint Joan of Arc, etc.) We obey God first, not people.

    I also want to ask you. Do you think Archbishop Lefebvre was a great man if he disobeyed Rome and was excommunicated? I suppose so. If you truly believe Archbishop Lefebvre had the right to do so, then you must put forward other arguments against Father Feeney.
    The fruits of these Saints are seen.We understand them as Catholics.  I do not see good fruits of Father Feeney or Archbishop Lefebvre (maybe they haven't happened yet) but I am not going to just fight people on this topic because I am frustrated and angry that people do not see the situation as I see it.  I see many people do this.
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #34 on: Today at 11:36:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Russiantrad on Today at 07:57:40 AM
    It sounds a bit harsh, but you're right. For example, no one has yet been able to explain to me how the Church dogmatized BoD/BoB. Everyone draws different boundaries for salvation without baptism or even salvation outside the Church.
    My guess is that it all started breaking down in the 1500s when protestants were baptizing people into essentially heresy.
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #35 on: Today at 11:39:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on Today at 08:22:20 AM
    :facepalm:  +ABL was excommunicated, hello?  And by your own admission, you think JP2 was a legit pope.  So +ABL's excommunication was WORSE because Fr Feeney simply ignored a court request, while +ABL ignored MULTIPLE summons to rome and ultimately committed graves sins against canon law due to ordinations.
    I think you have me confused with someone else.  I don't believe JP2 was a legit pope.  The Assisi prayer meetings solidified that for me.  I don't trust anything after V2.  

    As for +ABL, he thought JP2 was his authority,  so yes I do not agree with his disobedience either.
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #36 on: Today at 11:42:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on Today at 10:46:30 AM
    Here is a scan of a catechism from a poster (+rip) pretty much confirming what Lad said.   


    This catechism was written by who?  I currently don't have time to look it up myself.
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #37 on: Today at 11:45:13 AM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on Today at 11:25:55 AM
    "Please, be quiet" would have been a more civil approach. 

      I still would like to see a list of Saints that were disobedient to their superiors.  
    Requesting a list of "disobedient" saints is disingenuousness. Why don't you provide a list of saints who died failing to profess the Truth when it was necessary to do so. If you cannot, then shut up. Every single foundational Traditionalist was "disobedient", 

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    The fact that the fruits of these discussions are full of so much anger and lack charity make me think they lack approval from God
    Same can be said for every point of contention in Traddieland, ever. 

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    If their is proof from the past, then I would be more likely to look at Father Feeney's actions differently.
    So whether or not you will consider what Fr. Feeney said solely relies on there being a precedent of saints disobeying their superiors? You're ridiculous. Good day

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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #38 on: Today at 12:08:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on Today at 11:42:50 AM
    This catechism was written by who?  I currently don't have time to look it up myself.
    I don't know, all I know is it was posted by a poster who was an avid defender of a BOD. 

    Quote from: Gray2023 on Today at 07:25:46 AM
    Was St Athanasius disobedient?  I thought saintly people were determined by how obedient they were/are to their authorities.  Please provide a list of disobedient Saints.
    We are all bound to TRUE obedience, which is obedience first to God, and only then obedience to authority. St. Athanasius is a great example of this.  
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #39 on: Today at 12:27:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on Today at 11:33:33 AM
    I do not see good fruits of Father Feeney or Archbishop Lefebvre (maybe they haven't happened yet)
    You don’t see any good fruits of +ABL and the sspx?  ????  What!?
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #40 on: Today at 01:43:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Today at 11:45:13 AM
    Requesting a list of "disobedient" saints is disingenuousness. Why don't you provide a list of saints who died failing to profess the Truth when it was necessary to do so. If you cannot, then shut up. Every single foundational Traditionalist was "disobedient",
    Same can be said for every point of contention in Traddieland, ever.
    So whether or not you will consider what Fr. Feeney said solely relies on there being a precedent of saints disobeying their superiors? You're ridiculous. Good day
    I thought that is how people who are looking to understand the law look for precedent.  I think this disobedience question is very important.  You men, want wives to be obedient to their spouse because it was set up by God.  Well apply this to Father Feeney and +ABL.  We are in the Crisis due to many different forms of disobedience. I just think that until we apply that across all forms of master/servant relationships, God will not restore Catholicism. Just my observation no one has to even pay any attention to me.
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Russiantrad

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #41 on: Today at 02:24:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on Today at 01:43:24 PM
    I thought that is how people who are looking to understand the law look for precedent.  I think this disobedience question is very important.  You men, want wives to be obedient to their spouse because it was set up by God.  Well apply this to Father Feeney and +ABL.  We are in the Crisis due to many different forms of disobedience. I just think that until we apply that across all forms of master/servant relationships, God will not restore Catholicism. Just my observation no one has to even pay any attention to me.
    Saint Athanasius also lived in times of crisis and did not obey when the truth was being attacked. And yes, I think all men here recognize that a woman should not obey her husband in sinful matters. So Father Feeney also should not have obeyed when his authorities attacked the truth.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #42 on: Today at 02:43:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on Today at 12:27:50 PM
    You don’t see any good fruits of +ABL and the sspx?  ????  What!?
    Currently I am having a hard time seeing good fruits.  I see splits. I see scandals. I see families breaking up.  I see people speaking badly about their current priest, because they have a different opinion.  It is more of a mess than ever.  So maybe I am just in a melancholy stupor, please give a list of the good fruits you see.
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #43 on: Today at 02:58:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Russiantrad on Today at 02:24:11 PM
    Saint Athanasius also lived in times of crisis and did not obey when the truth was being attacked. And yes, I think all men here recognize that a woman should not obey her husband in sinful matters. So Father Feeney also should not have obeyed when his authorities attacked the truth.
    Did St. Athanasius ordain Bishops? Did St. Athanasius accept the consequences of his disobedience?  These things matter.  Did Father Feeney? Did +ABL?  

    These are tough times and no one but God knows the Truth.

    This is why the sedevacantists and sedeprivationists, first decide that the Novus Ordo Popes don't have authority, then they do what they need to do to keep the Church alive.

    I know this is just my perspective and I very well could be wrong.

    I just don't think there is an easy answer and if you think you are right, you are probably wrong.  

    God will eventually make this all clear.

    (And yes my thoughts and feelings are all over the place, but I think most people are just as frustrated as I am, and only want to figure out how to please God)
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    Fatti Maschii, Parole Femine

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Against the Heresy of Feeneyism
    « Reply #44 on: Today at 03:16:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on Today at 02:43:23 PM
    Currently I am having a hard time seeing good fruits.  I see splits. I see scandals. I see families breaking up.  I see people speaking badly about their current priest, because they have a different opinion.  It is more of a mess than ever.  So maybe I am just in a melancholy stupor, please give a list of the good fruits you see.
    The fruits are not to be seen/measured according to all people, because the sspx (just like the catholic church) is made up of flawed, sinful individuals.  The fruits are to be seen in exemplary individuals, but most importantly, in the Truth/doctrine.  That is, that priests/families are willing to sacrifice x, y and z to protect, (attempt to) build Tradition, build schools, build chapels/convents, in hopes that Tradition will survive.  The struggle/desire/work is proof that Tradition is worth keeping.

    In other words, there was a story of a protestant who was serious about catholicism.  He visited Rome in the mid 1800s, admist all sorts of Vatican scandals, etc.  He returned and shocked his friends by his decision to convert.  He said, "If the Catholic Church can survive all of the turmoil, scandals, and lukewarm individuals I met in Rome, then surely it only exists because God is keeping it going.  Therefore, it must be of Divine origin."

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