Quote from: Yeti 9/23/2022, 5:03:26 PM

Epiphany, this is the correct and Catholic teaching on infants who die without baptism.

This is really bizarre. You showed this? Where? I can't find it anywhere in this thread. Can you please point it out to me? And also show us where the Church teaches what you're claiming it teaches in this statement?

What i quoted says the Church teaches that persons not baptized cannot enter heaven. 

Baptism of blood and of desire are dogma of the Church as legitimate forms of baptism.

We were created to know, love, and serve God, Our Lord.  The unborn are no exception.

We do not know how the mind of an infant works, especially in relation to God, so it is very possible they can desire baptism.

Use of Limbo for the unborn, as stated in the catechism, is only a "common belief", not dogma of the Church.

Read the quotes again, especially these:

"baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent" St. Alphonsus Ligouri's Moral Theology Manual (15th century), Bk. 6, no. 95., Concerning Baptism

Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments." Encyclical On Promotion of False Doctrines (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore) by Pope Pius IX, 1863

A person outside the Church by his own fault, and who dies without perfect contrition, will not be saved. But he who finds himself outside without fault of his own, and who lives a good life, can be saved by the love called charity, which unites unto God, and in a spiritual way also to the Church, that is, to the soul of the Church." Pope St. Pius X, Catechism of Christian Doctrine

It is the teaching of the Catholic Church that when the baptism of water becomes a physical or moral impossibility, eternal life may be obtained by the baptism of desire or the baptism of blood" 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia, Baptism

I hope this helps.

There is no question in my mind that Limbo is no longer used, that there are three forms of baptism, and that God gives every man (born or unborn) an opportunity to reach heaven. 

It is clear Church teaching that infants without the Sacrament of Baptism can not go to Heaven.  Nowhere does the Church teach or ever taught that infants [or preborn] can be baptized with BOD. Epiphany obstinately denies this.  Epiphany is a manifest heretic.  He should not be posting on a Traditional Catholic forum.

In a practical sense, if all unborn children who are murdered by abortion go to heaven with a level of certainty, maybe ALL children should be aborted, as your and my children have no assurance of heaven living life in this world; even after baptism .

In other words, abortion is a ticket to Heaven. We could have Heaven population parties with pregnant mothers aborting. Sweet.

Why even baptize? Why the sacrifice of Christ?  Original sin can be mitigated or absolved in many ways......Incarnation not necessary.

It's basically the same problem that St. Augustine addressed about ѕυιcιdє in De Civitate Dei

In a practical sense, if all unborn children who are murdered by abortion go to heaven with a level of certainty, maybe ALL children should be aborted, as your and my children have no assurance of heaven living life in this world; even after baptism .

In other words, abortion is a ticket to Heaven. We could have Heaven population parties with pregnant mothers aborting. Sweet.

Why even baptize? Why the sacrifice of Christ?  Original sin can be mitigated or absolved in many ways......Incarnation not necessary.

Who said all unborn children who are aborted go to Heaven?

It is clear Church teaching that infants without the Sacrament of Baptism can not go to Heaven.  Nowhere does the Church teach or ever taught that infants [or preborn] can be baptized with BOD. Epiphany obstinately denies this.  Epiphany is a manifest heretic.  He should not be posting on a Traditional Catholic forum.

Agreed.  He’s promoting Pelagian heresy.  It’s the clear constant dogmatic teaching of the Church that infants have no hope of salvation if they do not receive the actual Sacrament of Baptism.  BoD, such as it is claimed to be, is an ex opere operantis phenomenon that requires a perfect act of charity along with supernatural faith, and there is no other means by which such an act can be passively infused in the soul other than through the ex opere operato effect of the Sacrament of Baptism.

St. Alphonsus, who believed in BoD, clearly taught this.

Who said all unborn children who are aborted go to Heaven?

Why only some aborted babies then ? If somehow they had intellect and reason wouldn’t ALL unbaptised babies desire it? Since they never sinned naturally why would they not desire it? 
just trying to hone the n on the theology, here

The act of desire would necessitate intellect and reason . There is too much presumption here to actually take this out of the theorizing category.