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Author Topic: Adults In Limbo  (Read 28260 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Adults In Limbo
« Reply #110 on: September 24, 2022, 03:53:53 PM »
No, I said I have to accept them because I have no authority to decide which are legit and which are not.  I have never defended  modern annulments.  There is no deceit at all.

I accept them also ... in practice.  And yet you and I were arguing not about specific cases, but rather about the principles for legitimate annulments, and you were in fact promoting the bogus perspective of Conciliar annulments.  Earlier, you were citing Conciliar-era docuмents about the salvation of infants who die without Baptism.  It seems that you're perfectly happy with the Conciliar orientation ... it's right up your alley.

So, what is it that has you rejecting the Conciliar Church anyway?  Or do you just like the Latin Mass?

Offline Yeti

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Re: Adults In Limbo
« Reply #111 on: September 24, 2022, 04:04:52 PM »
He mentioned that the vast majority of those who get married in the NO do not believe in the permanence of marriage (go in with the attitude of, "I'll give it a try, and if it does't work I can always get divorced." or else go into it deliberately planning on limiting children).  That is probably true ... in which case they're just fornicators or adulterers (as the case may be).  But the GROUNDS for NO to grant annulments are borderline absurd.


Both of those scenarios are specifically mentioned by pre-Vatican II theologians as not invalidating a marriage. I'd have to look it up. For the former, I read that not knowing or even rejecting the concept of marriage lasting until death does not invalidate the consent as long as the person believes marriage is a somewhat permanent union.

The second idea really stumps me where it came from, but a lot of people in the new church seem to believe it, the conservatives, particularly. This is just a distortion of a somewhat related idea, that any restriction placed on the right for sex in marriage invalidates the matrimonial consent. Thus, if someone were to say, "I only give you the right to sex in this marriage if we are using contraception," that would invalidate the consent, but just to have the intention to use contraception -- even to intend not to have children at all, or to intend always to use contraception -- does not invalidate it unless the nature of the consent is distorted.


Re: Adults In Limbo
« Reply #112 on: September 25, 2022, 06:59:12 AM »
I can't find the exact quote I'm thinking of now, but this should suffice for now.

UPDATE: Ah, here we go.
In your first link, epiphany incorrectly claims that "undisclosed abusive temper" is grounds for annulment under the 1917 Code of Canon Law.  He seems to like to interpret Church teaching to fit his beliefs.  Seems to be a pattern.

The question is does epiphany have a conciliar annulment?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Adults In Limbo
« Reply #113 on: September 25, 2022, 07:25:09 AM »

Both of those scenarios are specifically mentioned by pre-Vatican II theologians as not invalidating a marriage. I'd have to look it up. For the former, I read that not knowing or even rejecting the concept of marriage lasting until death does not invalidate the consent as long as the person believes marriage is a somewhat permanent union.

The second idea really stumps me where it came from, but a lot of people in the new church seem to believe it, the conservatives, particularly. This is just a distortion of a somewhat related idea, that any restriction placed on the right for sex in marriage invalidates the matrimonial consent. Thus, if someone were to say, "I only give you the right to sex in this marriage if we are using contraception," that would invalidate the consent, but just to have the intention to use contraception -- even to intend not to have children at all, or to intend always to use contraception -- does not invalidate it unless the nature of the consent is distorted.

If you have citations, I’d like to see them, but I’ve heard these criteria even from Trad priests.

Offline Yeti

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Re: Adults In Limbo
« Reply #114 on: September 25, 2022, 08:20:22 PM »
If you have citations, I’d like to see them, but I’ve heard these criteria even from Trad priests.
I get this from The Administration of the Sacraments, by Fr. Nicholas Halligan, OP. Imprimatur: 1962. A fantastic resource for any questions anyone might have about the sacraments; I really can't recommend this book highly enough.

For the first question, that the belief that marriage is dissoluble does not invalidate consent, here's what he says:


Quote
An error of mistake of law concerns the nature of essential object and properties of the matrimonial contract, as in the case of ignorance. Thus, a simple error regarding the unity or the indissolubility of the sacramental dignity of marriage, even though the motivating reason for entering into the contract, does not invalidate matrimonial consent. [...] To know a thing with all its properties and to will a thing differ; one can simply will a thing as it is in itself and not know very well its properties or be mistaken about them. Thus an error about the essential qualities of marriage does not necessarily invalidate it. The general intention to contract marriage as instituted by God prevails over the error. Although many consider marriage to be dissoluble and not sacramental, e.g., protestants, Jews, infidels, yet they normally will to contract marriage as it is. They probably would positively exclude these properties if they were later questioned about them, but they did not actually exclude them at the time consent was given.

I have attached a scan of the page. The part I quoted is about a third of the way down; I'm sorry I don't know how to highlight an image like that (can anyone help me with this?)