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Author Topic: Aborted babies & baptism of blood  (Read 14476 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2019, 04:15:29 PM »
Under the New Law, the martyrs were likely. Water Baptized.   :cowboy:

Correct.  During times of persecutions, the catechumens received emergency Baptism, but, apart from early reception of the Sacrament, continued on in the status of catechumen, continuing to learn and being prepared for the fullness of the Church's Sacramental life.  So references in Church history to martyred catechumens are inconclusive and moot.

Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2019, 04:18:52 PM »
Red herring.
I was refuting the assertion that water baptism or circuмcision is necessary for martyrdom.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2019, 04:21:51 PM »
Did the killing of the Holy Innocents do something for their justification?  Bellarmine thinks so.  Others disagree.  Bellarmine has to posit an ex opere operato action of martyrdom.  But that's a real problem.  So you have an adult who's a formal heretic and explicitly rejects the Catholic Church, but then is martyred for being a Christian.  with the ex opere operato theory of Bellarmine, and the quasi-ex-opere-operato expression of St. Alphonsus, that heretic would be justified and saved.  But the Church has taught otherwise dogmatically, that BoD does not apply to those who lack the Catholic faith.  And infants lack the Catholic faith, since it has not been infused by the Sacrament of Baptism.

Nevertheless, here's the key.  In no way could this action have constituted a substitute for Baptism for the Holy Innocents, since Baptism as a sacrament did not yet exist.  It's the dogmatic teaching of Trent that there can be NO justification since the promulgation of the Gospel WITHOUT the Sacrament of Baptism.  Even if one posits the existence of BoD and BoB, even in those cases the Sacrament of Baptism remains the instrumental cause of justification.  Otherwise, you commit the heresy of claiming that people can be justified without Baptism.  But in the case of the Holy Innocents, the Sacrament could not have been the instrumental cause of justification, since it did not exist.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2019, 04:27:37 PM »
I was refuting the assertion that water baptism or circuмcision is necessary for martyrdom.

Church has dogmatically taught that the Catholic faith is necessary for martyrdom.  Period.  At least with a martyred catechumen (even if you believed they were unbaptized catechumens), they obviously have professed the Catholic faith already.  So how exactly did these infants receive the Catholic faith?  Answer: they couldn't, unless you claim that BoB is now an 8th Sacrament, and somehow results in the infusion of supernatural faith.  That is not taught by the Church.  That's why the Church teaches that there is no remedy for children to be saved apart from the Sacrament of Baptism.  Even if something ex opere operato happened to the Holy Innocents, the argument from them towards modern BoB for infants falls flat because of the requirement for supernatural faith for salvation.

Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2019, 05:35:36 PM »
Did the killing of the Holy Innocents do something for their justification?  Bellarmine thinks so.  Others disagree.  Bellarmine has to posit an ex opere operato action of martyrdom.  But that's a real problem.  So you have an adult who's a formal heretic and explicitly rejects the Catholic Church, but then is martyred for being a Christian.  with the ex opere operato theory of Bellarmine, and the quasi-ex-opere-operato expression of St. Alphonsus, that heretic would be justified and saved.
No, because heresy places an obstacle to the grace (ibid., end of 3rd full ¶)