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Author Topic: A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite  (Read 7982 times)

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Offline Nishant

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A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2014, 06:06:50 AM »
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  • The article is an excellent and detailed refutation of Feeneyism and its many heretical variants.

    Anyone who thinks a soul who dies justified doesn't go to heaven shows that he doesn't even understand what justification is. Justification is the translation from the state of original sin to the state of sanctifying grace. Trent dogmatically defines that in all the justified nothing else is necessary to ultimately go to heaven other than that they depart in grace. The obstinate denial of this is heretical. A justified soul is a child of God, whom the blood of Christ has cleansed, in whom the Holy Ghost indwells, who is inside the Church and in the state of sanctifying grace.

    Trent condemns the proposition that "without them [the sacraments], or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification" from which it is obvious that no one can be saved who has not either received the sacraments or desired to receive them, that the sacraments are necessary in fact or in desire. The example of Cornelius in Scripture, cited in the article, as all approved commentaries teach, also suffices to refute the Dimondist variety of Feeeneyism that denies that justification is possible through the desire of the sacraments.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.


    Offline Don Paolo

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    A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite
    « Reply #16 on: June 16, 2014, 06:31:45 AM »
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  • What exactly am I defending???? I am defending the dogmas of Trent as they have been infallibly interpreted by the post-Tridentine magisterium. You are proposing a heretical private interpretation of dogmatic pronouncements that directly opposes the dogmas of Trent as infallibly interpreted by the post-Tridentine popes and the universal & ordinary magisterium.


    Offline Don Paolo

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    A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite
    « Reply #17 on: June 16, 2014, 07:29:21 AM »
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  • What exactly am I defending???? I am defending the dogmas of Trent as they have been infallibly interpreted by the post-Tridentine magisterium. You are proposing a heretical private interpretation of dogmatic pronouncements that directly opposes the dogmas of Trent as infallibly interpreted by the post-Tridentine popes and the universal & ordinary magisterium.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite
    « Reply #18 on: June 16, 2014, 07:30:47 AM »
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  • What exactly am I defending???? I am defending the dogmas of Trent as they have been infallibly interpreted by the post-Tridentine magisterium. You Feeneyites are proposing a heretical private interpretation of dogmatic pronouncements that directly opposes the dogmas of Trent as infallibly interpreted by the post-Tridentine popes and the universal & ordinary magisterium.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite
    « Reply #19 on: June 16, 2014, 07:32:51 AM »
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  • Why are my replies to comments on another page getting posted on this one?


    Offline Don Paolo

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    A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite
    « Reply #20 on: June 16, 2014, 07:49:42 AM »
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  • What exactly am I defending???? I am defending the dogmas of Trent as they have been infallibly interpreted by the post-Tridentine magisterium. You Feeneyites are proposing a heretical private interpretation of dogmatic pronouncements that directly opposes the dogmas of Trent as infallibly interpreted by the post-Tridentine popes and the universal & ordinary magisterium. I defend the authentic interpretation of dogma by the authoritative magisterium of the Church. You Feeneyites interpret dogmatic pronouncements according to the Protestant principle of Private Judgment -- exactly according to the same principle of Private Judgment by which the Anglicans interpret tradition. Feeneyism is s new form of Protestantism; which protests its adherence to dogma and tradition according to its own private and inverted interpretation of them; and rejects the dogmas as they have been interpreted and understood by the infallible authority of the magisterium.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite
    « Reply #21 on: June 16, 2014, 08:57:10 AM »
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  • Throughout the entire history of the Church; no pope, no council, no synod, no Father, no Doctor; no authority in the Church has ever pronounced against baptism of blood, or taught that it offends against EENS. It is the unanimous and perpetual tradition of the universal magisterium  -- St. Cyprian of Carthage attested that BOB was universally professed in the Church already in the first half of the Third Century. He also stated that only "aiders and favourers of heretics" deny BOB. It was also the same St. Cyprian who first coined the formula, "Extra Ecclesism nulla salus." Since the Council of Trent all popes and Doctors have taught BOD explicitly, or authorized it to be taught. No pope,  no council, no catechism, has ever maintained that BOD offends against any canon of Trent, or against EENS. It is only those generally recognized as heretics who dissent from the infallible authority of the magisterium, and follow their own Private Judgment in interpreting the dogmatic canons, who deny BOB & BOD.

    Online Ladislaus

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    A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite
    « Reply #22 on: June 16, 2014, 09:46:09 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    Anyone who thinks a soul who dies justified doesn't go to heaven shows that he doesn't even understand what justification is. Justification is the translation from the state of original sin to the state of sanctifying grace. Trent dogmatically defines that in all the justified nothing else is necessary to ultimately go to heaven other than that they depart in grace.


    While I don't happen to agree with Father Feeney on this particular point, what you're saying simply isn't true.

    Was St. Joseph in a state of grace?  Then why couldn't he enter heaven right away when he died?  This is an interesting question that has never been adequately treated.  Clearly there was something missing besides sanctifying grace.  You're misconstruing the teaching that only sanctifying grace is required for entry into heaven.


    Online Ladislaus

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    A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite
    « Reply #23 on: June 16, 2014, 10:34:27 AM »
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  • Quote from: Don Paolo
    Throughout the entire history of the Church; no pope, no council, no synod, no Father, no Doctor; no authority in the Church has ever pronounced against baptism of blood, or taught that it offends against EENS. It is the unanimous and perpetual tradition of the universal magisterium)


    That's simply untrue.  Before the time of St. Bernard (about half the time that the Church has existed) there was exactly ONE Church Father who unequivocally promoted Baptism of Desire, and that Father later retracted the opinion and can be quoted as having issued the strongest statements in existence AGAINST the notion of BoD.  Apart from that what you have in the "tradition of the universal magisterium" is a deafening silence.  You see only constant affirmation of the fact that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation (something that is no longer believed by the vast majority of Catholics).

    What is true is that BoD / BoB have never been explicitly condemned.  Which is why I reject the Dimonds' assertion that people who accept BoD are by that fact alone heretics.  Nevertheless, the magisterial arguments AGAINST BoD/BoB are much stronger than the ones for them.

    Here are the two strongest arguments against BoD/BoB, arguments against which I can see no logical out.

    ONE:

    Major [de fide]:  Those who are not subject to the Supreme Pontiff cannot be saved.

    Minor [de fide from Trent]:  Those who have not received Sacramental Baptism (with specific mention of catechumens) are in no way subject to the Supreme Pontiff.

    Conclusion [proximate to faith]:  Those who have not received Sacramental Baptism cannot be saved.

    TWO:

    Major [de fide]:  There is no salvation outside the "Church of the faithful".

    Minor [theologically certain]: At no time has the Church or any theologian ever used the term "faithful" to include catechumens.  Catechumens were always considered NOT to be among the "faithful".

    Conclusion [theologically certain unless there's a sudden, radical redefinition of the term "the faithful"]:  Catechumens who die without the Sacrament of Baptism cannot be saved.

    Quote
    St. Cyprian of Carthage attested that BOB was universally professed in the Church already in the first half of the Third Century. He also stated that only "aiders and favourers of heretics" deny BOB. It was also the same St. Cyprian who first coined the formula, "Extra Ecclesism nulla salus." Since the Council of Trent all popes and Doctors have taught BOD explicitly, or authorized it to be taught. No pope,  no council, no catechism, has ever maintained that BOD offends against any canon of Trent, or against EENS. It is only those generally recognized as heretics who dissent from the infallible authority of the magisterium, and follow their own Private Judgment in interpreting the dogmatic canons, who deny BOB & BOD.


    Oh, yes, you mean the same St. Cyprian who (about a paragraph away from his BoB teaching) articulated a sacramental theology about Baptism that was later condemned as heretical?  St. Cyprian taught that the invalidity of Baptism by heretics was the constant tradition of the Church.  There were a number of Church Fathers who followed him on the subject of BoB, but there's no evidence of any unanimous teaching of the Church Fathers on this subject.  Of the hundreds upon hundreds of Church Fathers, about 6-7 can be found who promote BoB.  These SAME Church Fathers also very forcefully reject BoD.  Which puts you into a catch-22 type of situation.  If these Fathers were WRONG, as you claim, in their rejection of BoD, then the could just as easily have been wrong in their promotion of BoB.  Ironically, many Church Fathers also followed St. Cyprian in his error about heretical Baptism ... so great was his influence.

    What's really very sad is the Karl Rahner did one of the most objective and honest studies of the subject out there, and he concluded that there's no such universal tradition in support of BoD, but that the notion grew over time.  Of course that implies the modernist notion of a growing awareness of doctrine or truth (rather than a one-time deposit of revelation).

    I have examined the evidence objectively, and there simply isn't enough there to show that BoD/BoB were revealed and are part of the deposit of revelation.  I acknowledge that since the time of St. Bernard it has become an increasingly widely-held opinion, but given its lack of roots in revelation, it rests squarely in the realm of speculative theology.  And I have been looking for ANY demonstration of how BoD derives from other revealed doctrine, and no such argument as ever been made.  All I find is repeated gratuitous assertions that BoD exists, without any theological proof whatsoever.  BoD creates tons of theological problems, and there's strong evidence against it theologically (based on the arguments cited above as ONE and TWO).  Consequently, I reject BoD & BoB.  But the BoDers REFUSE to OBJECTIVELY examine the evidence and make patently false unsupported assertions that it's the unanimous constant teaching of the Church.  That's just baloney.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite
    « Reply #24 on: June 16, 2014, 10:43:25 AM »
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  • What ignorance of basic catechism! St. Joseph was living before the death of Christ on the Cross opened the gates of heaven. Before the redemption of the sons of Adam was accomplished, no one entered heaven. All who died in the state of grace went to limbo and waited there until Christ made the "descent into hell", rose from the dead, and opened the gates of heaven.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite
    « Reply #25 on: June 16, 2014, 10:52:49 AM »
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  • I did not say baptism of DESIRE was unanimous throughout the entire Patristic period -- what I said was that baptism of BLOOD, was already unanimous since the most ancient times. The ancient Fathers were unanimously professing BAPTISM OF BLOOD. St. Cyprian attests to that FACT. He erred in his opinion regarding the baptism, but that was not yet a settled question. My! You Ferneyites are so ignorant!


    Offline Don Paolo

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    A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite
    « Reply #26 on: June 16, 2014, 10:54:47 AM »
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  • Erratum: regarding rebaptism

    Offline Don Paolo

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    A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite
    « Reply #27 on: June 16, 2014, 10:56:31 AM »
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  • Erratum: regarding rebaptism

    Offline Cantarella

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    A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite
    « Reply #28 on: June 16, 2014, 11:02:51 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus

    I have examined the evidence objectively, and there simply isn't enough there to show that BoD/BoB were revealed and are part of the deposit of revelation.  I acknowledge that since the time of St. Bernard it has become an increasingly widely-held opinion, but given its lack of roots in revelation, it rests squarely in the realm of speculative theology.  And I have been looking for ANY demonstration of how BoD derives from other revealed doctrine, and no such argument as ever been made.  All I find is repeated gratuitous assertions that BoD exists, without any theological proof whatsoever.  BoD creates tons of theological problems, and there's strong evidence against it theologically (based on the arguments cited above as ONE and TWO).  Consequently, I reject BoD & BoB.  But the BoDers REFUSE to OBJECTIVELY examine the evidence and make patently false unsupported assertions that it's the unanimous constant teaching of the Church.  That's just baloney.


    The Church has consistently and infallibly taught that Baptism of water is necessary to obtain life everlasting. "Baptism of Desire" has been a teological speculation at the most. The fallible teaching on BOD is mostly found in modern catechisms and some saints writings who could be well in error or misinterpreted. Example of this fallacious cathechisms are the Baltimore Catechism, which actually contains errors. Catechisms are not infallible and actually the Baltimore Catechism was the creation of James Cardinal Gibbons, a notorious Americanist (a heresy condemned by Pope Leo XIII in 1893) who inserted some questions about Baptism. (he had to, in order to establish the Catholic religion, in pluralist America) This is the predominant cathechism of the XX century, so entire modern generations have been taught with this, no wonder.

    There has not been solemn condemnation of BOD/BOB so it is safe to pressume that the theory has been allowed, however is fallible and could be changed. BOD/BOB are not de fide.

    Tteaching on BOD has evolved like this historically, in an outline:

     - St Ambrose speech on Valentinian, (misinterpretation, and following note of rectification that John 3:5 is to be taken literally).

     - St Augustine quote about BOD, then rectification made for donatists.

     - Overwhelming consensus of the Church fathers on necessity of the Church and water baptism.

     - Theology of the new world 1492. Some BOD opinion -> Peace of Westphalia

    1648 - catholic monarchs water down Faith for protestant nations for co-existing.

     - Reformation - From political acceptance, personal acceptance followed. Assault of sacramentality as only vehicle of sanctifying grace.

     - Pope Piux IX 1848, misunderstanding on Invincible ignorance in allocution.

     - Insertion by Cardinal Gibbons on questions of Baptism in the Catechism of Baltimore 1884 - Americanism - speculation on BOD erected into "Church teaching". Generations were raised thinking on this fallible Baltimore catechism as dogma.

    BOD /B for catechumens only is because this belief in itself may be harmless if limited to catechumens and martyrs only as it was speculated in the past. The problem is that apparently no modern Catholic limits the belief of BOD for catechumens only but use this BOD as the root of the heresy of Invincible Ignorance and universal salvation and is under this context that it is debated.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Don Paolo

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    A Further Reply to the Heretic Feeneyite
    « Reply #29 on: June 16, 2014, 11:11:28 AM »
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  • No minister of the sacrament ever tried to baptize anyone with "desire". The canon defines that SACRAMENTAL BAPTISM requires WATER. It does NOT state or in any manner imply that sanctification and justification does not take place where there are the theological virtues, contrition and the resolve to receive the sacrament. Sess. 7 canon 4 explicitly defines that justification requires either the sacraments OR the resolve to receive them. In Acts 10:46 -48, it is related that St. Peter affirmed that the just evangelized gentiles had already received the Holy Ghost "as we have" -- BEFORE receiving baptism.